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Entrevista com Klaus Schulze

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Paris, 1973 © kdm archives
1968/69, playing drums with Tangerine Dream
© kdm archives
O músico e compositor alemão Klaus Schulze nasceu em Berlim, no dia 4 de Agosto de 1947. Ele aprendeu a tocar guitarra na infância, mas logo em seguida decidiu tornar-se baterista. Já no novo instrumento, Klaus Schulze formou a banda Psy Free, um trio formado por orgão, guitarra e bateria, que tocava em alguns locais em Berlim. Um destes locais era o hoje em dia famoso Zodiak Free Arts Lab, clube fundado em 1969 por Boris Schaak, Hans-Joachim Roedelius e Conrad Schnitzler. Nesta época, Schnitlzer fazia parte do recém formado Tangerine Dream, que contava com Edgar Froese na guitarra. Em um dos shows da banda o baterista faltou e Klaus Schulze juntou-se a eles, permanecendo como baterista até o lançamento do primeiro LP do Tangerine Dream, "Electronic Meditation", lançado no verão de 1970. Logo na sequência, Klaus Schulze e Conrad Schnitzler deixaram a banda. Schnitzler formou o Kluster, com Hank-Joachim Roedelius e Dieter Moebius, e Klaus Schulze formou o Ash Ra Tempel, com o guitarrista Manuel Göttsching e o baixista Hartmut Enke (os três membros do Ah Ra Tempel chegaram a tocar em certas ocasiões usando o nome de "Eruption", com Conrad Schnitzler e outros). Com o Ash Ra Tempel, Schulze gravou o primeiro álbum, "Ash Ra Tempel" (1971), e logo em seguida deixou a banda para poder dar continuidade à sua busca por uma sonoridade própria e única.

1973 © Max Jacoby
Em 1972, Klaus Schulze gravou o que seria o primeiro álbum de uma discografia extensa e mágica, "Irrlicht", utilizando um orgão eletrônico e manipulações de fitas, tendo como base a gravacão de uma orquestra clássica, devidamente tratada através de filtros e efeitos, finalmente chegando no som que buscava. "Irrlicht"é um pouco diferente do estilo dos discos seguintes lançados por Schulze, fazendo uma conexão maior com a musique concrète e a tape music do que com a "música eletrônica" propriamente dita. Para seu segundo disco, "Cyborg" (1973), ele utilizou um sintetizador EMS, o que ajudou a direcionar ainda mais sua música para um som "espacial". A partir do terceiro álbum - "Blackdance" (1974) -, Klaus Schulze adicionou mais e mais sintetizadores, teclados eletrônicos e efeitos na sua música. Neste ponto da carreira, ele já era um dos principais nomes da música eletrônica, não só na Alemanha mas por toda a Europa! Em 1976, um Moog Modular System foi adquirido por Schulze, e seus sons sequenciados tornaram-se uma espécie de marca registrada na sua música por algum tempo (apesar da explicação dele, nesta entrevista, que os equipamentos não são o aspecto mais importante da sua música, temos que concordar que os instrumentos da Moog - bem como outros sintetizadores analógicos disponíveis na época - foram um fator importante durante sua procura por um som específico, como bem podemos conferir na sua discografia, gravações de concertos, fotos e filmagens da época. Naturalmente, era o único equipamento disponível na época - a tecnologia digital só chegou no final dos anos 70 -, mas Klaus Schulze fez um dos melhores usos dos sintetizadores analógicos, criando uma música e uma sonoridade atemporais e "extra-terrestes".)

A discografia de Klaus Schulze é imensa, contando com discos solo (todos relançados em CD, alguns com bonus tracks), box sets, DVDs de concertos, bandas na qual ele participou (como o Tangerine Dream e o Ash Ra Tempel, mencionados anteriormente, e também o Go, projeto com o percussionista japonês Stomu Yamashta), discos lançados como Richard Wanhfried (pseudônimo de Schulze para um projeto paralelo, de 1979 em diante), e discos que ele gravou e produziu com a cantora australiana Lisa Gerrard, do Dead Can Dance. Você pode checar a discografia completa no website oficial: www.klaus-schulze.com

Mr. Mueller & Mr. Schulze, Berlim, Novembro de 2008
 © kdm archives
Eu enviei as questões para esta entrevista por email, e as respostas vieram rapidamente - o que explica o fato dele ter respondido minha segunda questão já na primeira pergunta, por exemplo. E esta entrevista não seria possível sem a ajuda do Sr. Klaus D. Mueller, um amigo de longa data do Klaus Schulze e responsável pela publicação da maior parte dos trabalhos do Sr. Schulze (Klaus D. Mueller é também o produtor de alguns dos lançamentos de álbuns do Klaus Schulze, como a coleção de CDs "Editions", lançada nos anos 90, e seu recente relançamento como "La Vie Electronique"). Klaus D. Mueller foi muito gentil, respondendo meus emails antes e depois da entrevista, e providenciou-me uma foto dele com o Klaus Schulze em 2008 - que pode ser vista aqui à direita -, além de permitir a utilização das fotos do site oficial. Sou muito grato aos Senhores Mueller e Schulze! Obrigado! E aqui está a entrevista com o Sr. Klaus Schulze!

Brussels, 1976 © Klaus D. Mueller

ASTRONAUTA - Como a música surgiu na sua vida e quais foram as suas primeiras influências artísticas, na infância e adolescência?

KLAUS SCHULZE - Quando eu era criança, tive algumas aulas de violão na escola. Toquei violão por seis anos, mais ou menos. Eu também brincava com a guitarra elétrica, tocando músicas das bandas 'The Shadows' ou 'The Spotnicks'. Meu interesse na música pop daquela época não era tanto nas "canções" ou nos cantores de Rock'n'Roll, e sim no SOM. Os novos, incomuns e exóticos sons que algumas das bandas ou músicos populares vinham buscando alcançar. Este era o meu interesse. 

1972 © Marcel Fugère
Então eu comecei a tocar bateria, porque meu irmão era baterista em uma banda de jazz, então eu pensei que tocar bateria seria mais legal do que tocar guitarra. Na metade dos anos 60, eu passei a tocar bateria com um trio de rock, PSY FREE. 'Psy Free' era um trio com guitarra, orgão e bateria. Eu era o baterista. Nós tocavamos o que o nome sugere: psicodelia, música livre. Não "free jazz" - o que era muito comum naquela época, mas nossa música era mais voltada para o rock, para o barulho. Nós tocavamos apenas em clubes na cidade de Berlim. 

Então, como a extensa e precisa discografia THE WORKS coloca, corretamente: final de 1968/início de 1969, primeira apresentação de Klaus Schulze com o Tangerine Dream no clube Magic Cave, em Berlim, na ausência do baterista habitual Sven-Ake Johansson. Daquele momento em diante, eu fui membro do Tangerine Dream, até o verão de 1970. 

Também naqueles primeiros tempos, eu utilizava alguns tipos de equipamentos "eletrônicos": eu modifiquei um velho e barato orgão elétrico e um amplificador de guitarras Fender, sem saber exatamente o que estava fazendo, mas os sons exóticos que eu conseguia com aquilo em certas ocasiões, justamente por causa disto, eram interessantes (para mim). Quando eu li no seu website a entrevista com o Ron Geesin, há alguns dias, me surpreendi que eu e Geesin - independentemente - estavamos fazendo as mesmas coisas, ao mesmo tempo, na mesma época. Geesin: "Eu utilizava: mudancas de velocidade na fita, edição precisa, tocava a fita ao contrário, usava ruídos de rádio e qualquer coisa que eu pudesse ligar." Exatamente. Depois destas experiências, muitas vezes algum dos equipamentos nem tinha mais conserto.  

Tangerine Dream, 1970: Schulze, Froese e Schnitzler
© kdm archives
Eu deixei o Tangerine Dream porque o Edgard não gostava das minhas experiências com orgão e com fitas executadas ao contrário (ele queria um baterista mais direto para companhar seu jeito de tocar guitarra baseado no Hendrix. Pouco depois, Conny Schnitzler também saiu da banda, justamente por ter idéias 'malucas' em relação à música)... E, então, eu conheci dois caras que tocavam blues rock sob o nome de "Steeplechase Bluesband". E eles haviam perdido seu baterista. Com este dois, eu formei o ASH RA TEMPEL, e então mudamos do blues rock para o "space rock". Eu ainda era o baterista, mas eu também tocava minha lap guitar especial ligada numa câmera de eco, para criar ritmos precisos ou mesmo para fazer sons "cósmicos". Um dia eu disse para mim mesmo "okay, a música que fazemos é bonita e normal mas se eu quiser fazer algo realmente especial, tenho que mudar de instrumento". Então eu passei a tocar teclados, isto deve ter acontecido por volta de 1971.

ASTRONAUTA - Você foi baterista de algumas bandas (algumas bandas bastante conhecidas, diga-se de passagem) antes de mudar para as manipulações de fita e para os sintetizadores e teclados eletrônicos, e antes de você se tornar um dos maiores e mais conhecidos nomes da música eletrônica. Como foi esta transição na sua carreira e vida pessoal?

KLAUS SCHULZE - Aconteceu como eu disse anteriormente. Eu devo mencionar que, na época que eu estava tocando com estas bandas, elas ainda não eram "bastante conhecidas". Um tipo de música bem diferente era "bastante conhecido" e popular naquela época.

ASTRONAUTA - Ne metade dos anos 70, você adquiriu um sintetizador Modular Moog, instrumento que passou a ter uma importância muito grande e se tornou uma característica marcante na sua sonoridade. Você poderia nos contar um pouco da história deste instrumento específico, o seu sintetizador Modular Moog? E quais os outros instrumentos da Moog você teve durante a sua carreira?

1976 © Klaus D. Mueller
KLAUS SCHULZE - Eu não tenho como falar nada sobre a "história" deste Moog. Por favor, entenda que eu utilizo estes equipamentos, mas eles não são um fetiche para mim. Eu gosto quando eles funcionam perfeitamente (o que não acontecia sempre) e quando eu posso utiliza-los da maneira que eu quero, e quando eles fazem exatamente o que eu quero deles. Quando possibilidades melhores estão à mão, naturalmente eu as utilizo. Eu posso citar novamente o Ron Geesin, na estrevista que você fez com ele: "a IDÉIA é tudo, e pode ser realizada de várias maneiras. As mudanças na tecnologia de áudio, principalmente as técnicas de sample e manipulação digital, dão uma 'paleta' maior para eu pintar com meus sons, mas isto não muda a IDÉIA." Eu não conheço este homem, mas ele está absolutamente certo. Sou eu, o artista, o músico, quem tem a idéia para a música, e que a executa. Os instrumentos são apenas ferramentas. Músicos como eu muitas vezes ficam admirados como os 'fãs' adoram tanto estas ferramentas, especialmente na música pop ou, mais especificamente, na "música eletrônica". Nenhum amante de esculturas, pinturas ou literatura adoraria um martelo, um pincel ou uma máquina de escrever.

ASTRONAUTA - Quais foram os seus sintetizadores preferidos nos anos 70? E, olhando em retrospecto, qual é (ou permaneceu sendo) o seu sintetizador dos anos 70, hoje em dia?

Winsen, 1979 © Klaus D. Mueller
KLAUS SCHULZE - Eu sempre gostei de instrumentos que tivessem alguma coisa especial: os osciladores do 'Minimoog' tem aquele som profundo e denso; o 'Farfisa Synthorchester', aquele som de 'voz feminina' nos registros agudos, pelo menos no instrumento que eu tenho; o Modular Moog System tinha um sequencer maravilhoso; o 'Yamaha CS 80' tinha isto, o 'EMS Synthi A' tinha aquilo... Eu utilizava cada intrumento para certa parte especial, para criar os sons que eu queria e precisava nas minhas músicas. Também tiveram importância os efeitos e os métodos que eu os utilizava: eco, repetição, flanger, phase shifter, etc. E não podemos esquecer as técnicas de gravação e mixagem: construíndo 'salas', esquerda, direita, para trás, para frente... (Isto tudo além de todas as técnicas musicais, de composição de uma peça musical, com introdução, várias partes, tensão, paradas, caos e beleza, ritmo e calmaria, repetição, sonoridades, melodias, surpresas, etc, etc, etc...)

ASTRONAUTA - No final dos anos 70 e início dos anos 80, como as diferenças da tecnologia analógica para a tecnologia digital afetaram ou mudaram a sua carreira?

KLAUS SCHULZE - Em 1979, eu adquiri meu primeiro computador musical, o "G. D. S.", e eu testei várias coisas na época, com a ajuda de um técnico norte-americano que a companhia enviou para me mostrar como funcionava. Era - para mim e para todo o mundo - uma maneira completamente diferente e NOVA de criar e gravar sons e música. A era DIGITAL estava batendo à porta. Toda a programação musical do primeiro disco 100% executado e gravado digitalmente, DIG IT, foi feita em disco digital. Eu não utilizei os tradicionais sintetizadores analógicos na ocasião. Para o lançamento, eu 'inventei' um slogan para os anúncios da gravadora, na divulgação do meu álbum DIG IT: "A era da cadeira de rodas eletrônca está acabada".

Derby, 1996 © kdm archives
ASTRONAUTA - Quais os instrumentos dos anos 70 você ainda tem e utiliza no seu estúdio, hoje em dia?

KLAUS SCHULZE - Eu ainda tenho e ainda utilizo o 'Minimoog' e o 'EMS Synthi A', porém muito mais em concertos do que no meu estúdio. No estúdio eu trabalho mais ou menos - como já faço há muitos anos - com computadores e programações.

ASTRONAUTA - Obrigado, Sr. Schulze!

KLAUS SCHULZE - Eu que agradeço você.

Tangerine Dream: Froese, Schulze, "Happy" Dieter
e "Hippie" Kraesze apresentando a banda
© kdm archives
Ash Ra Tempel, 1970: Göttsching, Schulze e Enke
© kdm archives
Linz, Austria, 1980
© kdm archives
Barcelona, Espanha, 1991 © Dom F. Scab
Varsóvia, Setembro de 2009, com Lisa Gerrard
© Piotr Sulkowski
1983 © kdm archives

www.klaus-schulze.com
Todas as fotos utilizadas com permissão de Klaus D. Mueller/Klaus Schulze official website.


Interview with Klaus Schulze

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Paris, 1973 © kdm archives

1968/69, playing drums with Tangerine Dream
© kdm archives
Klaus Schulze was born in Berlin, Germany on August 4th, 1947. He learnt guitar in his childhood and then moved to the drums soon after that. As a drummer, Klaus Schulze formed Psy Free, a trio consisting of organ, guitar and drums, that played in venues in Berlin. One of this venues was the now famous Zodiak Free Arts Lab, a club founded in 1969 by Boris Schaak, Hans-Joachim Roedelius and Conrad Schnitzler. At this time, Schnitzler was a member of the newly formed Tangerine Dream, with Edgar Froese on guitar. In one occasion their regular drummer was absent for a concert, so Klaus Schulze joined the band and remained as their drummer until the release of their first LP, "Electronic Meditation", on summer 1970. So, Klaus Schulze and Conrad Schnitzler left the band soon after that - Schnitzler formed Kluster with Hans-Joachim Roedelius and Dieter Moebius, and Klaus Schulze formed Ash Ra Tempel, with guitarrist Manuel Göttsching and bassist Hartmut Enke (the three members of Ash Ra Tempel had played in some occasions as "Eruption", with Conrad Schnitzler and others). With Ash Ra Tempel, Mr. Schulze recorded their first album, "Ash Ra Tempel" (1971), and soon left the band, in his search to find his own and unique sound.

1973 © Max Jacoby
In 1972, Klaus Schulze recorded what would be the first title of his extent and magic discography, "Irrlicht", using an electric organ and tape manipulations of a recorded classical orchestra, with some filters and effects, to achieve a marvelous and unique sound. "Irrlicht" is a little different from Schulze's style in his next solo albums, being more connected to the musique concrète and tape music than to the "electronic music". To his second album, "Cyborg" (1973), he used an EMS synthesizer, what helped him to go further into a more "space" sound. From his third album - "Blackdance" (1974) - on, Klaus Schulze added more and more synthesizer, electronic keyboards and effects to his music. At this point, he was already one of the main names of electronic music, not only in Germany but all over the Europe! In 1976, a Moog Modular System was purchased by Klaus Schulze and its sequenced sounds became a kind of trademark on his music for some time (even, as he explains in the following interview, that the equipments are not the most important aspect of his music, one must agree that the Moog equipments - and other analog synthesizers available at that time - were an important subject during his search for a specific sound, as we can check throughout his discography, concert recordings and concert photos and footage from that time. Of course it was the only equipment available at that time - digital technology only arrived in late '70s - but Klaus Schulze made one of the best usages of the analog synthesizer, creating atemporal and "unearthly" sounds.)

Klaus Schulze's discography is huge, counting with his solo albums (all of them released on CD, sometimes with bonus tracks), box sets, concert DVDs, bands in which he played (like Tangerine Dream and Ash Ra Tempel, mentioned before, and Stomu Yamashta's Go), albums released as Richard Wahnfried (Mr. Schulze's pseudonym for his side project, from 1979 on), and albums he recorded and produced with Australian singer Lisa Gerrard, from Dead Can Dance. You can check his full discography on his website: www.klaus-schulze.com

Mr. Mueller & Mr. Schulze, November 2008
© kdm archives
I sent the questions for this interview via email, and the answers came soon after that - what explains that he already answered my second question in the first question, for instance. And this interview wouldn't be possible without the help from Mr. Klaus D. Mueller, a long time friend of Klaus Schulze and the music publisher of most of Mr. Schulze's works (Mr. Mueller is also the producer of some of Klaus Schulze's albums, like the multi CD sets released in the '90s, "Editions", and their recent re-release as "La Vie Electronique"). Klaus D. Mueller was very kind in replying my emails before and after the interview, and provided me that nice photo of himself and Klaus Schulze in 2008, shown here on the right. I am very grateful to Mr. Mueller and Mr. Schulze! Thank you! And here's the interview with Mr. Klaus Schulze!

Brussels, 1976 © Klaus D. Mueller
ASTRONAUTA - How did you discover music in your life and what were your first musical influences, in your childhood and teenage days?

KLAUS SCHULZE - As a kid I had some guitar training at school and played guitar for about six years, also I fooled around with the electric guitar in the sixties, playing music of 'The Shadows' or 'The Spotnicks'. My interest in the pop music of the day was not so much the 'songs' or the singers or Rock'n'Roll, but it was the SOUND. The new, unusual, exotic sounds that some of the popular bands or musicians tried out. This was my interest.

1973 © Marcel Fugère 
Then I started with drums because my brother was a drummer with a jazz band, so I thought that drumming would be more pleasant than playing guitar. In the mid sixties I was drumming in the free rock trio PSY FREE. "Psy Free" was a trio consisting of guitar, organ and drums. I was the drummer. We did what the name suggests: psychedelic, free music. Not "free jazz" - which was in common at this time, but our music was more rock orientated noise. We played only in Berlin clubs.

Then, as the huge and accurate discography THE WORKS states quite correctly: Late '68/early '69, first gig of KS with TD at Berlin club Magic Cave for absent regular drummer SvenAke Johansson. From then on I was a member of TD, until summer 1970.

Also, at this early time I used some kind of "electronics": I fumbled around with the inside of an old cheap electric organ and a Fender guitar amp, without knowing what I am doing, bit the exotic sounds that came out sometimes, because of this, they were interesting (to me). When I had read some days ago in your website the interview with Ron Geesin, I was surprised, that we both - independently - were doing the about same thing at this time. Geesin: "I used: speedchanging on tape; fine editing; backwards playing; feedback; noises from radio; just about anything that I could wire up." Exactly. After these experiments, sometimes an instrument was beyond repair.

Tangerine Dream, 1970: Schulze, Froese & Schnitzler
I left Tangerine Dream because Edgar didn't like my experiments with organ and backwards tapes (he wanted a straight drummer for his Hendrix-like guitar playing. Soon after, Conny Schnitzler also left, because he also had 'crazy' ideas about music), ... and then I found two guys who had played blues rock as the "Steeplechase Bluesband" and had lost their drummer. With these two I formed ASH RA TEMPEL and I moved them far away from bluesrock, into "space rock". Still I was the drummer, but I also played my special lap guitar with an echo machine, for steady rhythm or for "cosmic" sounds. One day I said to myself "okay' it's all pretty and normal music, but if I want to do really something special, I should change instruments". I started with keyboards, it must be around the end of 1971.

ASTRONAUTA - You were the drummer of some bands (some very well known bands, by the way) before changing to tape manipulations and to the synthesizers and electronic keyboards, and before you became one of the biggest names in the electronic music field. How was this transition in your life and career?

KLAUS SCHULZE - This happened just as I told before.
I should mention, that at the time when I was playing with these groups they were not "very well known". A very different type of music was "well known" and popular at this time.

ASTRONAUTA - In the mid-70s you purchased a Moog Modular synthesizer that became a very characteristic instrument in your music. Can you tell us a little bit about the history of this specific instrument, your Moog Modular synthesizer? And how about other Moog Music Company instruments you had in your career?

1976 © Klaus D. Mueller
KLAUS SCHULZE - I cannot tell anything about "the history" of the Moog. Please understand that I use these instruments, but they are not a fetish to me. I like them when they work perfectly (what they did not always) and when I can use them in the way I want, and when they do finally exactly what I want from them. When better possibilities are at hand, then of course I use those. I can cite again Ron Geesin from his interview with you: "The IDEA is everything, and can be realised in many different ways. The changes in audio technology, mainly sampling and digital manipulation, have given a wider 'palette' from which to paint my sounds, but they don't choose the IDEA." I don't know this man, but he is absolutely right. It's me, the artist, the musician, who has the idea for the music and who plays this music. The instruments are just the tools. Musicians like me sometimes wonder why 'fans' adore these tools so much, especially in pop music, or, more especially: in "electronic music". No lover of sculptures, paintings, or literature would adore a hammer, a brush, or a typewriter.

ASTRONAUTA - What was your favorite synthesizer in the '70s? And, looking back, what is (or remained as) your favorite synthesizer from the '70s, nowadays?

Winsen, 1979 © Klaus D. Mueller
KLAUS SCHULZE - I always liked the instruments that had a special sound: the 'Minimoog' oscillators have this great deep and full tone; the 'Farfisa Syntorchester' had this 'female solo singing voice' in the higher register, at least the instrument that I owned; the Moog modular system had the wonderful sequencer; the 'Yamaha CS 80' had this and the 'EMS Synthi A' had that... I used every instrument for a certain & special part to create the sounds of my music that I needed and wanted. Also not unimportant were the effect tools and the method I made use of them: echo, repeat, flanger, phase shifter, etc. and not to forget: the recording and mixing technique: building 'rooms', left, right, back, front... (besides all the musical techniques of composing a piece of music, with intro, various parts, tension, breaks, chaos and beauty, rhythm and calmness, repetition, sounds, melodies, surprises, etc, etc, etc...)

ASTRONAUTA - In the late '70s and early '80s, how did the differences from analog technology to digital technology changed or how they affected your career and your music?

KLAUS SCHULZE - In 1979 I got the first music computer, the "G.D.S." and I tried out many things then, with the help of an American technician from the company, who showed me how to use it. It was - for me and for everybody - a complete different and NEW way of creating and storing sounds and music. The DIGITAL era was knocking at the door. The whole musical programme of the first 100% digitally played and recorded album, DIG IT was stored on digital disk. I didn't use traditional analogue synthesizers for it. For the release I 'invented' the slogan for the record label's advertising for my DIG IT album: "The era of analogue wheelchair electronics is over."

Derby, 1996 © kdm archives
ASTRONAUTA - What instruments from the seventies you still have in your studio, nowadays?

KLAUS SCHULZE - I still have and I still use sometimes the 'Minimoog' and the 'EMS Synthi A', but more often in concerts than in my studio. In the studio I work more or less - and for many many years now - with computer and its programmes.

ASTRONAUTA - Thank you, Mr. Schulze

KLAUS SCHULZE - I Thank you!

Tangerine Dream: Froese, Schulze, "Happy" Dieter
and "Hippie" Kraesze as announcer
© kdm archives
Ash Ra Tempel, 1970: Göttsching, Schulze & Enke
© kdm archives
Linz, Austria, 1980 © kdm archives
Barcelona, Spain, 1996 © Dom F. Scab
Warsaw, September 2009, with Lisa Gerrard
© Piotr Sulkowski
1983 © kdm archives

www.klaus-schulze.com
Photos used by courtesy of Klaus D. Mueller/Klaus Schulze official website.

Entrevista com Bernard Fèvre

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Bernard Fèvre nasceu no dia 29 de Abril de 1946, e cresceu em um subúrbio operário, distante cinco quilômetros de Paris, França. Na infância, ele costumava escutar peças de compositores clássicos, como Chopin, Debussy e Ravel. Também ouvia jazz, que ele conhecia através de programas de rádio. Bernard interessou-se e passou a tocar piano aos 4 anos de idade. No início dos anos 60, ele interessou-se pela música popular, principalmente de artistas norte-americanos (como Ray Charles e outros) e ingleses (como os Beatles e outras bandas). Aos 14 anos de idade, Bernard largou a escola para trabalhar em uma fábrica durante o dia e tocar em uma banda, que se apresentava em casas noturnas. A banda tornou-se seu emprego oficial e aos 17 anos de idade, ele já estava ganhando a vida como músico profissional.

Na metade dos anos 60, aos 18 anos de idade, Bernard Fèvre teve que prestar seu serviço militar obrigatório e foi para a Alemanha, permanecendo lá por 16 meses. Tão logo ele retornou à França, reencontrou seus colegas e juntou-se novamente a eles, em uma nova banda, com quem ele viajou por toda a França, em apresentacões. Bernard Fèvre tocou nesta banda por cerca de 10 anos.

"Suspense", o primeiro álbum solo de Bernard Fèvre, foi lançado em 1975. Gravado em um pequeno apartamento na cidade de Paris. Utilizando somente um gravador TEAC de 4 canais, alguns sintetizadores e efeitos, "Suspense"é um ótimo exemplo dos primórdios da música pop eletrônica e também um ótimo exemplo de gravação caseira, assim como os discos seguintes lançados por Bernard Fèvre, "The Strange World Of Bernard Fèvre" e "Cosmos 2043" (almbos lançados em 1977).
A música contida nestes 3 discos poderia facilmente cair no setor de "Library Music" mas, muito além disto, estes albuns mostram uma pesquisa muito cuidadosa sobre os meios eletrônicos utilizados para criar uma música muito agradável, além de serem a gênese do projeto seguinte de Bernard Fèvre - e o projeto pelo qual ele alcançou reconhecimento internacional: Black Devil Disco Club.


Gravado e lançado em 1978, o primeiro álbum do Black Devil Disco Club é uma das grandes obras-primas da "disco music". Creditado a Junior Claristidge e Joachim Sherylee (na verdade nomes artísticos do Bernard Fèvre e do Jacky Giordano para este projeto, sendo que o segundo é creditado como co-autor das letras), Black Devil Disco Club foi gravado nos suburbios de Paris, novamente utilizando apenas sintetizadores, tape loops e um baterista ocasional. A RCA foi a gravadora que lançou o disco originalmente. Em 2004, o disco original foi relançado pela Rephlex Records e em 2006 o Black Devil Disco Club foi reativado oficialmente, e Bernard Fèvre lançou o segundo álbum do projeto, "28 After" (como o título deixa bem claro, depois de 28 anos do lançamento do primeiro disco), via o selo inglês Lo Recordings. O mesmo selo foi responsável, em 2009, por uma versão atualizada do disco originalmente lançado em 1975, "The Strange World of Bernard Fevre", e também por outros álbuns do Black Devil Disco Club - "Black Devil In Dub", 2007, "Eight Oh Eight", 2008, "Circus", 2011 (com participações de Nancy Sinatra, Jon Spencer e Afrika Bambaataa), e o recente "Black Moon White Sun", lançado em Outubro de 2013. Um documentário chamado "Time Traveler: The Strange World Of Bernard Fevre" está em processo de montagem, no momento, sob responsabilidade da companhia inglesa Multiny Media.

Meu primeiro contato com Bernard Fèvre para esta entrevista foi através da sua página oficial no Facebook e, a partir daí, via Olivier Rigout, que gentilmente encaminhou meus emails para o Bernard. O texto da entrevista foi originalmente enviado em francês pelo Sr. Fevrè. Você pode checar o texto original logo a pós a tradução da entrevista, no final deste post). Eu gostaria de agradecer muito ao Bernard Fevrè e aos Olivier por esta oportunidade de entrevistar um dos grandes nomes da música eletrônica francêsa! E aqui está a entrevista:


ASTRONAUTA - Bernard, quais os artistas ou bandas que você lembra como sendo suas primeiras influências? E como você decidiu que seguiria a carreira de músico profissional?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Muitos artistas me atraíram para a música, e minhas escolhas sempre foram muito variadas. Noa nos 50, eu amava Chopin, Debussy, Ravel, e também artistas como Edith Piaf, que eu gostava mas não sabia o nome. Eu sempre adorei ouvir rádio, porque eu amava todos os tipos de música da minha época. Meu programa de rádio favorito era um chamado "Para aqueles que amam o Jazz".

Nos anos 60, a música que mais me atraía vinha principalmente da América, da Inglaterra e do Brazil. Eu acho que , na época, estes eram os 3 países que produziam as coisas que mais tinham alma. Eu amava Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Quincy Jones, Diana Ross &The Supremes, The Rolling Stones, The Animals, The Beatles, The Yardbirds, Sergio Mendes, Stan Getz, Vinicius de Moraes, e outros compositores de Bossa Nova, que eu conheço, mas não sei os nomes.

Duas coisas me fizeram decidir trilhar o caminho da música: 1) o instinto irremediável que me levou a tocar piano por conta própria, sem formalmetne aprender e 2) aos 18 anos de idade, um desejo imenso de não trabalhar em uma fábrica, como meu pai, que eu raramente via por conta da insana jornada de trabalho.

ASTRONAUTA - Como você se interessou pela música e pelos instrumentos eletrônicos? Qual foi seu primeiro instrumento musical eletrônico?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Depois de ter tocado teclados acústicos e elétricos em bandas, logicamente eu me interessei por "eletrônicos e sintetizadores". Então eu adquiri meu primeiro sintetizador Korg, em 1973. Este sintetizador foi e ainda é o elemento principal no desenvolvimento do BDDC e de Bernard Fèvre.

ASTRONAUTA - Você morou na Alemanha por um tempo, nos anos 60, certo? A música e as artes produzidas na Alemanha influenciaram de alguma forma na sua carreira? Quais artistas e bandas você escutava na época?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Eu morei na Alemanha por 16 meses apenas, em um acampamento do exército Francês, onde não haviam alemães, infelizmente. E eu raramente saía, porque eu não tinha dinheiro. Ainda assim eu assisti alguns concertos na cidade, na maioria algumas das primeiras bandas de Krautrock, decadentes, que me surpreendiam mais pelo visual :) Eu vim a conhecer o Kraftwerk bem depois, na França. Eu era influenciado pelo Vangelis Papatanasious, bem mais Grego! Se você ouvir minhas batidas (no BDDC), você encontrará mais elementos da música sul-americana do que alemã :) No geral, eu evito influencias porque eu sou muito influenciável. Ennio Morricone e François de Roubaix eram, na Europa, os músicos que faziam as trilhas sonoras que eu mais amava.

ASTRONAUTA - Como você gravou seus primeiros discos - Suspense (1975), The Strange World Of Bernard Fevre (1975) e Cosmos 2043 (1977)? Como foi o processo de gravação destes albuns?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Eu gravei tudo em um pequeno apartamento, de mais ou menos 9 metros quadrados, na região Paris 75010, só com um gravador TEAC 4 canais e alguns efeitos fabricados na França, que se perderam no tempo...

ASTRONAUTA - Seu estilo musical mudou dos primeiros discos para o seu projeto seguinte, Black Devil Disco Club. Como foi esta transição para você?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Às vezes eu gosto de me sentar e às vezes eu gosto de levantar, mover minhas pernas e minha pelvis, como o "Elvis"... Então eu solicitei um bumbo "disco" ao espírito do Bernard Fevrè, e me tornei um pouquinho diabólico com isso, hehe!

ASTRONAUTA - Quais são seus projetos mais recentes e planos para o futuro (discos, concertos, etc.)?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Aqui estou eu, com um disco de Library Music (retornando às origens), misturando sons acústicos e sintetizados. Há um ano eu estou preparando o novo disco do BDDC, com influências mais claras do Brazil. Eu espero que eu consiga fazer. Na primavera de 2015, todo o meu catálogo dos anos 70 será republicado, graças a selos amigos ao redor do mundo. E, depois de 4 anos de trabalho duro do meu editor atual, Alter K, recuperamos os direitos de publicação da minha obra, fora de catálogo há 30 anos.

ASTRONAUTA - Existe um documentário sendo finalizado, sobre sua vida e música - "Time Travel: The Strange World Of Bernard Fèvre". Quais são as novidades sobre este filme, e quando ele estará disponível, será lançado? Você tem participação ativa na produção do documentário?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Sim, os britânicos estão entre os meus maiores apoiadores! Então, a empresa"Mutiny Media" já começou a produzir as primeiras imagens de um documentário, que será dedicado ao meu esquecimento e à minha retomada e redescoberta no mundo da música internacional. E eu sinto muito orgulhoso disto.

ASTRONAUTA - Uma última pergunta, Bernard, qual é o seu sintetizador preferido dos anos 70? Você ainda tem algum (ou todos) os instrumentos e equipamentos que você utilizava nos anos 70?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Eu amava os Moogs e os Korgs. Meu favorito é um Korg 700, sempre disposto a me ajudar! Eu tenho trabalhado em um velho Mac, com plugins do início do século 21. Eles já podem ser considerados "vintage", mas eu não quero me separar deles.



Texto original, em francês, enviado pelo Bernard Fèvre:

ASTRONAUTA - Quels musiciens ou groupes vous souvenez-vous que vos principales influences? Et comment avez-vous décidé de devenir musicien?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Beaucoup de musiciens m'ont attiré vers la musique et mon choix a toujours été très varié. Dans années 50 j'amais bien Chopin, Debussy, Ravel, et aussi les compositeurs de chanteurs comme Edith Piaf dont je ne savais pas le nom, j'ai toujours aimé écouté la radio car j'aime avant tout avoir un aspect général de la musique de mon époque. Ma primière émission de radio préférée s'appelait "Pour ceux qui aiment le jazz".
Dans les années 60 la musique qui m'a aimanté venait le plus souvent d'Amérique, d'Anglaterre et du Brésil je pense qu'à l'époque ces 3 pays produisaient des choses qui avaient beaucoup d'âme, j'aimais Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Quincy Jones, Diana Ross & The Supremes, Les Rolling Stones, Les Animals, Les Beatles, Les  Yardbirds, Sergio Mendes, Stan Getz, Vinicius de Moraes eu d'autres faiseurs de bossa nova dont je connais les mélodies mais non le nom.
Ce qui n'a décidé à prendre le chemin de la musique c'est 2 choses: 1) un instinct irrémédiable qui me poussait à jouer du piano sans avoir appris et 2) à 18 ans le désir profond de ne pas travailler dans une usine comme mon père que je voyais rarement vu ces horaires de travail insensés.

ASTRONAUTA - Comment t'es-tu intéressé à la musique électronique et instruments électroniques? Quel a été votre premier instrument de musique électronique?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Après été clavier de groupes de musique acoustique et électrique il était logique que je vienne vers l'électronique et la synthèse, j'ai donc acheté en 1973 mon premier synthé Korg, que j'ai toujours eu qui este un élément primordial de l'environnement de BDDC eu de Bernard Fèvre.

ASTRONAUTA - Vous avez vécu en Allemagne pendant un certain temps dans les années soixante, non? Comment la musique et les arts allemand n'ont influencé votre carrière musicale? Quels groupes avez-vous entendu à ce moment-là?

BERNARD FÈVRE - J'ai juste vécu à Berlin 16 mois dans une caserne de l'armée Française où il n'y avait pas de cours d'allemand malheureusement, et je ne sortais pas souvent par manque d'argent, j'ai quand même vu quelques concerts en ville qui étaient plutôt du rock décadent précurseurs de Kraut et qui me surprenaient par le look :) j'ai connu Kraftwerk bien plus tard en France. J'ai été influencé par Vangelis Papatanasious, donc plutôt grec! Si vous écoutez mes percussions (BDDC) vous y entendres plus de Sud Américan que de German Music :) De manière générale j'évite les influences car je suis très influençable. Ennio Morricone et François de Roubaix étaient, en Europe, des musiciens dont j'amais les musiques au cinéma.

ASTRONAUTA - Comment avez-vous enregistrer vos premiers albums - Suspense (1975), The Strange World of Bernard Fevre (1975) et Cosmos 2043 (1977)? Comment ça a été le processus d'enregistrement pour ces albums?

BERNARD FÈVRE - J'ai enregistré tout ça dans une "chambre de bonne" de 9 m2 environ, à Paris 75010, seul sur un tape recorder TEAC 4 tracks avec des FX Français qui ont tous disparus...

ASTRONAUTA - Votre style musical a changé depuis les premiers albums à votre prochain projet, Black Devil Disco Club. Comment c'était que la transition pour vous?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Parfois je suis assis et parfois debout avec l'envie de bouger les jambes et le pelvis "Elvis"... J'ai donc posée l'espirit Bernard Fèvre sur un kick disco et je suis devenu un peu diabolique, comme ça, HéHé!

ASTRONAUTA - Quels sont vos projets et les plans récents à l'avenir (albums, concerts, etc.)?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Là je suis sur un album de Library Music (retour aux sources) ce sera un mélange d'acoustique eu de synthés.
Je prépare depuis 1 an un prochain BDDC aves des influences plus marquées Brésil, j'espère réussir au printemps 2015 tout mes travaux des '70s von être réédités, grâce à des Labels amis dans le monde entier, et après 4 années de travail acharné d'ALTER K (mon éditeur actuel) pour récupérer mes droits d'éditions inexploitées durant 30 ans.

ASTRONAUTA - Il ya un documentaire en cours, au sujet de votre vie et de la musique - "Voyage dans le temps: The Strange World of Bernard Fevre". Y at-il des nouvelles de quand il sera disponible, quand il sera libéré? Êtes-vous actif sur la production de ce documentaire?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Oui, les Anglais sont toujours parmi mes plus grands supporters! Donc les productions "Mutiny Media"ont déjà tourné les premières images d'un docu qui sera consacré à mon oubli et ma redécouverte dans le monde de la musique internationale, je suis très fier de cela.

ASTRONAUTA - Une dernière question, quel était votre synthétiseur préféré dans les années soixante-dix? Avez-vous encore un peu (ou tous les instruments) et les équipements que vous avez utilisé dans les années soixante-dix?

BERNARD FÈVRE - J'aimais les Moog et les Korg, mon fétiche este un Korg 700 toujours prêt à m'aider! Je travaille sur un vieux Mac avec des plugins du début du 21ème siècle, ils sont déjà vintage mais je ne veux pas m'en séparer.

 

Interview with Bernard Fèvre

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Bernard Fèvre was born in April 29th, 1946, and grew up in a working-class suburb five kilometres from Paris, France. In his childhood he used to listen to classic composers like Chopin, Debussy and Ravel, and also jazz, which he knew from radio shows. Bernard became interested and begun to play the piano when he was 4 years old. In the early sixties, he became interested in popular music, mainly from the USA (Ray Charles and others) and England (The Beatles and other). At age 14, Bernard left the school to work on a factory during the day and to join a band in a nightclub, at nights. The second job became his official one, and at 17 he was already earning his life playing music, professionally.

In mid-sixties, at age 18, Bernard Fèvre had to do his military service and went to Germany, staying for 16 months in that country. As soon as he was back to France, he met again some of his old band mates and re-joined them in another band, with whom he toured all over France. Bernard Fèvre played for almost 10 years with this band.

"Suspense", Bernard Fèvre's first solo record, was released in 1975. Recorded in a small apartment in Paris and using only a Teac 4-track tape recorder, some synthesizers and effects, "Suspense" is a very nice early electronic album and a very good example of early "home recording", like Bernard's folowing albums, "The Strange World Of Bernard Fèvre" and "Cosmos 2043" (both released in 1977). The music in those 3 albums can easily fall on the "library music" label, but more than that, those albums shows a careful research on the electronic means to create very nice music, beside being the genesis of Bernard's next project (and the one which gave him international recognition): Black Devil Disco Club.

Recorded and released in 1978, Black Devil Disco Club's first album is one of the greatest "disco music" masterpieces. Credited to Junior Claristidge and Joachim Sherylee (in fact, those were the artistic names for Bernard Fèvre and Jacky Giordano to this project, the second being credited as a co-writer for the lyrics), Black Devil Disco Club was recorded in the suburbs of Paris, again using only synthesizers, tape loops and an occasional drummer. RCA was the original label for the release. In 2004 the original 1978 EP was reissued by Rephlex Records label, and in 2006 Black Devil Disco Club officially came back to life, and Bernard Fèvre released the project's second album, "28 After" (as the title make clear, after 28 years from the project's first album), via UK label Lo Recordings. The same record company is responsible for a re-worked version of the original 1975 album "The Strange World of Bernard Fèvre" (released in 2009), and also for other albums by Black Devil Disco Club - "Black Devil In Dub", 2007, "Eight Oh Eight", 2008, "Circus", 2011 (with guest artists Nancy Sinatra, Jon Spencer and Afrika Bambaataa), and the recent "Black Moon White Sun", released in October 2013. A documentary called "Time Traveler: The Strange World Of Bernard Fèvre" is on production by UK company Multiny Media.

My first contact with Bernard Fèvre was via his Facebook page, and then via Olivier Rigout, who kindly forwarded my emails to Bernard, with this interview (the text was originally sent in French by Mr. Fèvre. Your can check it below the English translation). I'd like to thank so much Bernard Fèvre and Olivier for this opportunity, to interview one of the great names of French electronic music! And here's the interview:



ASTRONAUTA - Which musicians or bands do you remember as your primary influences? And how did you decide to become a musician?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Many musicians attracted me to music and my choice has always been varied. In the '50s I loved Chopin, Debussy, Ravel, and also composers like Edith Piaf, that I did not know by name, I've always loved to listen to the radio because I loved all the genres of music of my time. My first favorite radio show was called "For Those Who Love Jazz".

In the '60s the music that had magnetized me came mostly from America, England and Brazil. I think that, at that time, those 3 countries produced things that had a lot of soul. I loved Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Quincy Jones, Diana Ross & The Supremes, The Rolling Stones, The Animals, The Beatles, The Yardbirds, Sergio Mendes, Stan Getz, Vinicius de Moraes, and other creators of Bossa Nova tunes, which I know but not by name.

Two things made me decide to take the path of music: 1) irreparable instinct that drove me to play the piano without learning and 2) at 18 years old, a deep desire to not work ina a factory like my father, that I rarely saw because of those insane working schedules.

ASTRONAUTA - How did you become interested in electronic music and electronic instruments? What was your first electronic music instrument?

BERNARD FÈVRE - After playing acoustic and electric keyboards in bands, it was logical that I'd come into the "electronics and synthesis", so I bought my first Korg synth in 1973, that I always had as a key element of the environment of the BDDC and Bernard Fèvre.

ASTRONAUTA - You lived in Germany for some time in the sixties, right? How did German music and arts influenced your musical career? Which bands did you hear at that time?

BERNARD FÈVRE - I just lived in Berlin for 16 months, in a French army barracks where there was no German, unfortunately, and I did not often go out because I was out of money. I still saw a few concerts in town, that were rather decadent Krautrock precursors, and surprised me by the look :) I only knew Kraftwerk much later, in France. I was influenced by Vangelis Papatanasious, so rather Greek! If you listen to my drums (on BDDC), you will hear more South American than German music :) In general, I avoided influences because I am very impressionable. Ennio Morricone and François de Roubaix were, in Europe, the musicians whose film music I loved the most.

ASTRONAUTA - How did you record your first albums - Suspense (1975), The Strange World Of Bernard Fevre (1975) and Cosmos 2043 (1977)? How it was the recording process for those albums?

BERNARD FÈVRE - I recorded that all in an "apartment" of about 9 square meters, in Paris 75010, alone on a TEAC 4 tracks tape recorder, with French FX that have all gone...

ASTRONAUTA - Your musical style changed from the first albums to your next project, Black Devil Disco Club. How it was that transition for you?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Sometimes I sit down and sometimes I stand up, with the urge to move my legs and "Elvis" pelvis... So I asked the spirit of Bernard Fèvre for a disco kick, and I became a litte bit evil like that, hehe!

ASTRONAUTA - What are your recent projects and plans to the future (albums, concerts, etc.)?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Here I am with an Library Music album (coming back home), that will be a mix of acoustic and synthesized sounds. I've been preparing for one year the next BDDC, with more pronounced influences from Brazil. I hope to succeed. In the spring of 2015 all of my work from the '70s will be republished, thanks to friendly labels around the world, and after 4 years of hard working from Alter K (my current editor), to get back my publishing rights, unused for 30 years.

ASTRONAUTA - There's a documentary going on, about your life and music - "Time Travel: The Strange World Of Bernard Fevre". Are there any news about when it will be available, when it will be released? Are you active on the production of this documentary?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Yes, the British are still among my biggest suporters! So, "Mutiny Media" productions have already turned the first images of a documentary, which will be dedicated to my forgetfulness and my rediscovery in the world of international music. I am very proud of that.

ASTRONAUTA - One last question, what was your preferred synthesizer in the seventies? Do you still have some (or all of the) instruments and equipments that you used in the seventies?

BERNARD FÈVRE - I loved the Moog and the Korg. My favorite is a Korg 700, always willing to help me! I'm working on an old Mac, with plugins from early 21st century. They are already vintage, but I don't want to be apart from them.



Original text for the interview, in French:

ASTRONAUTA - Quels musiciens ou groupes vous souvenez-vous que vos principales influences? Et comment avez-vous décidé de devenir musicien?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Beaucoup de musiciens m'ont attiré vers la musique et mon choix a toujours été très varié. Dans années 50 j'amais bien Chopin, Debussy, Ravel, et aussi les compositeurs de chanteurs comme Edith Piaf dont je ne savais pas le nom, j'ai toujours aimé écouté la radio car j'aime avant tout avoir un aspect général de la musique de mon époque. Ma primière émission de radio préférée s'appelait "Pour ceux qui aiment le jazz".
Dans les années 60 la musique qui m'a aimanté venait le plus souvent d'Amérique, d'Anglaterre et du Brésil je pense qu'à l'époque ces 3 pays produisaient des choses qui avaient beaucoup d'âme, j'aimais Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, Quincy Jones, Diana Ross & The Supremes, Les Rolling Stones, Les Animals, Les Beatles, Les  Yardbirds, Sergio Mendes, Stan Getz, Vinicius de Moraes eu d'autres faiseurs de bossa nova dont je connais les mélodies mais non le nom.
Ce qui n'a décidé à prendre le chemin de la musique c'est 2 choses: 1) un instinct irrémédiable qui me poussait à jouer du piano sans avoir appris et 2) à 18 ans le désir profond de ne pas travailler dans une usine comme mon père que je voyais rarement vu ces horaires de travail insensés.

ASTRONAUTA - Comment t'es-tu intéressé à la musique électronique et instruments électroniques? Quel a été votre premier instrument de musique électronique?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Après été clavier de groupes de musique acoustique et électrique il était logique que je vienne vers l'électronique et la synthèse, j'ai donc acheté en 1973 mon premier synthé Korg, que j'ai toujours eu qui este un élément primordial de l'environnement de BDDC eu de Bernard Fèvre.

ASTRONAUTA - Vous avez vécu en Allemagne pendant un certain temps dans les années soixante, non? Comment la musique et les arts allemand n'ont influencé votre carrière musicale? Quels groupes avez-vous entendu à ce moment-là?

BERNARD FÈVRE - J'ai juste vécu à Berlin 16 mois dans une caserne de l'armée Française où il n'y avait pas de cours d'allemand malheureusement, et je ne sortais pas souvent par manque d'argent, j'ai quand même vu quelques concerts en ville qui étaient plutôt du rock décadent précurseurs de Kraut et qui me surprenaient par le look :) j'ai connu Kraftwerk bien plus tard en France. J'ai été influencé par Vangelis Papatanasious, donc plutôt grec! Si vous écoutez mes percussions (BDDC) vous y entendres plus de Sud Américan que de German Music :) De manière générale j'évite les influences car je suis très influençable. Ennio Morricone et François de Roubaix étaient, en Europe, des musiciens dont j'amais les musiques au cinéma.

ASTRONAUTA - Comment avez-vous enregistrer vos premiers albums - Suspense (1975), The Strange World of Bernard Fevre (1975) et Cosmos 2043 (1977)? Comment ça a été le processus d'enregistrement pour ces albums?

BERNARD FÈVRE - J'ai enregistré tout ça dans une "chambre de bonne" de 9 m2 environ, à Paris 75010, seul sur un tape recorder TEAC 4 tracks avec des FX Français qui ont tous disparus...

ASTRONAUTA - Votre style musical a changé depuis les premiers albums à votre prochain projet, Black Devil Disco Club. Comment c'était que la transition pour vous?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Parfois je suis assis et parfois debout avec l'envie de bouger les jambes et le pelvis "Elvis"... J'ai donc posée l'espirit Bernard Fèvre sur un kick disco et je suis devenu un peu diabolique, comme ça, HéHé!

ASTRONAUTA - Quels sont vos projets et les plans récents à l'avenir (albums, concerts, etc.)?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Là je suis sur un album de Library Music (retour aux sources) ce sera un mélange d'acoustique eu de synthés.
Je prépare depuis 1 an un prochain BDDC aves des influences plus marquées Brésil, j'espère réussir au printemps 2015 tout mes travaux des '70s von être réédités, grâce à des Labels amis dans le monde entier, et après 4 années de travail acharné d'ALTER K (mon éditeur actuel) pour récupérer mes droits d'éditions inexploitées durant 30 ans.

ASTRONAUTA - Il ya un documentaire en cours, au sujet de votre vie et de la musique - "Voyage dans le temps: The Strange World of Bernard Fevre". Y at-il des nouvelles de quand il sera disponible, quand il sera libéré? Êtes-vous actif sur la production de ce documentaire?

BERNARD FÈVRE - Oui, les Anglais sont toujours parmi mes plus grands supporters! Donc les productions "Mutiny Media"ont déjà tourné les premières images d'un docu qui sera consacré à mon oubli et ma redécouverte dans le monde de la musique internationale, je suis très fier de cela.

ASTRONAUTA - Une dernière question, quel était votre synthétiseur préféré dans les années soixante-dix? Avez-vous encore un peu (ou tous les instruments) et les équipements que vous avez utilisé dans les années soixante-dix?

BERNARD FÈVRE - J'aimais les Moog et les Korg, mon fétiche este un Korg 700 toujours prêt à m'aider! Je travaille sur un vieux Mac avec des plugins du début du 21ème siècle, ils sont déjà vintage mais je ne veux pas m'en séparer.

 

Entrevista com Michael Rother

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Foto: Ann Weitz, 1973.
Michael Rother nasceu no dia 2 de Setembro de 1950, na cidade de Hamburgo, na Alemanha. Seu primeiro contato com a música foi ouvindo a sua mãe executar peças do seu compositor favorito, Frédéric Chopin, ao piano. Na infância, Michael Rother viveu em Munique (Alemanha), Wilmslow (Inglaterra) e em Karachi (no Paquistão, onde ele teve contato com a música paquistanesa), antes da sua família retornar para a Alemanha, para a cidade de Düsseldorf, onde ele juntou-se à sua primeira banda, "Spirits Of Sound", na qual ele tocou guitarra entre 1965 e 1971. Também em Düsseldorf, Michael Rother juntou-se aos músicos Florian Schneider e Klaus Dinger no Kraftwerk, durante um curto período no qual Ralf Hütter deixou a banda para dedicar-se aos estudos de arquitetura. Com o Kraftwerk, Michael Rother tocou em alguns concertos, participou de alguns programas de rádio e TV mas, mais do que isso, foi neste período que ele e o baterista Klaus Dinger descobriram que tinham idéias muito parecidas em relação à música, suas afinidades musicais eram muito maiores entre si do que com Florian Schneider, e logo Rother e Dinger deixaram a banda para formar o NEU!, uma das principais bandas alemãs dos anos 70, servindo como influência para artistas como David Bowie, Brian Eno, Iggy Pop, Joy Division, Ultravox e vários outros. O NEU! gravou três albuns essenciais nos anos 70 (NEU!, 1972; NEU! 2, 1973; e NEU! 75, 1975), trabalhando com outro grande nome do rock alemão, o produtor Conny Plank.

Em 1973, Michael Rother conheceu os músicos Hans-Joachim Roedelius e Dieter Moebius. Juntos, Roedelius e Moebius já eram nomes bastante conhecidos no rock e na música experimental alemã, desde o final dos anos 60, primeiramente tocando com Conrad Schnitzler como Kluster e depois como uma dupla, mudando o nome da banda para Cluster. Michael Rother havia escutado uma faixa do Cluster e se interessou pela música da dupla. Com a intenção de convidar Roedelius e Moebius para juntarem-se ao NEU! em uma tour pela Inglaterra, Michael Rother viajou para Forst, onde Roedelius e Moebius moravam, e para onde Michael mudou-se, em seguida, formando o Harmonia, outra banda alemã influente nos anos 70. O primeiro disco do Harmonia, "Musik von Harmonia" foi lançado em janeiro de 1974. Também em 1974, Rother co-produziu "Zuckerzeit", o terceiro álbum do Cluster, e foi durante um concerto do Harmonia em Hamburgo, no Fabrik, que Brian Eno entrou em contato com Rother, Roedelius e Moebius. Em 1975, o Harmonia lançou seu segundo disco, "Deluxe" (com o baterista Mani Neumeier como músico convidado em algumas faixas), e no ano seguinte, no mês de setembro, Brian Eno juntou-se ao trio na sua casa em Forst, Alemanha. "Tracks and Traces", um disco do Harmonia com o Brian Eno, foi gravado durante o período que Eno permaneceu com a banda, mas só foi lançado em 1997, e depois relançado com faixas extras em uma reedição muito bem feita, via o selo Grönland, em 2009 (em 2007, o selo Grönland também lançou o álbum "Live 1974", gravado pelo Harmonia em um concerto na Penny Station, em Griessem, Alemanha, no dia 23 de março de 1974).

Foto: Ann Weitz, 1976.
A carreira solo de Michael Rother começou em 1977, com o grande álbum "Flammende Herzen" (co-produzido por Conny Plank e gravado no estúdio do Conny, entre junho e setembro de 1976). Michael Rother gravou todos os instrumentos no disco, com exceção da bateria, gravada por Jaki Liebezeit, da banda Can. "Sterntaler", segundo disco solo de Rother, também gravado com Conny Plank e Jaki Liebezeit, foi lançado em 1978. "Katzenmusik", seu terceiro disco solo, foi lançado em 1979 e, em 1982, Michael Rother lançou seu quarto álbum solo, "Fernwärme", gravado integralmente em Forst, e pimeiro disco de Rother a ser lançado pela gravadora Polydor. Os discos seguintes de Rother são: "Lust" (1984), "Süßherz und Tiefenschärfe" (1985), e "Traumreisen" (1987). "Radio", uma coletânea lançada em 1993, foi o primeiro álbum a ser lançado pela Random Records, selo do próprio Michael Rother, e foi seguido pelos discos "Esperanza" (1996) e "Remember - The Great Adventure" (2004).

Em novembro de 2010, eu tive a oportunidade de assistir ao Michael Rother ao vivo, no SESC Vila Mariana (em São Paulo) em um concerto muito legal, no qual Michael Rother - jutamente com o baterista Steve Shelley e o baixista Aaron Mullan - tocaram como Hallogallo 2010. Um concerto espetacular, devo dizer! Eu contatei o Michael Rother para convidá-lo a fazer esta entrevista há alguns meses, e eu fico muito feliz que ele tenha encontrado algum tempo na sua agenda atarefada para enviar-me as respostas para a entrevista em áudio, que eu prontamente transcrevi (com a ajuda do próprio Michael Rother). Então é isso, eu tenho a oportunidade de publicar esta entrevista hoje, no dia 2 de setembro, dia do aniversário do Michael Rother! Muito obrigado, Michael, e tenha um ótimo aniversário!

E aqui está a entrevista:

Foto: Hadley Hudson, 2001.
ASTRONAUTA - Michael Rother, quais foram seus primeiros passos na música e seus primeiros instrumentos musicais?

MICHAEL ROTHER - Meus primeiros passos na música foram, naturalmente, ouvindo minha mãe tocar piano clássico, quando eu era bem novo, na minha infância. Minha mãe estudou piano clássico e ela tocava peças do seu compositor favorito, Chopin - Frédéric Chopin - em casa. Mais tarde, quando eu tinha por volta de 7 ou 8 anos de idade, meu irmão que é dez anos mais velho do que eu, fazia festas de rock'n'roll em casa, então eu ouvia rock'n'roll, artistas como Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, e especialmente Little Richard, que hoje em dia eu ainda adoro.

ASTRONAUTA - Na sua infância e adolescência, você morou em outros países - Inglaterra, Paquistão. Como a música feita nestes países influenciou sua vida e na sua própria musicalidade?

MICHAEL ROTHER - Quando eu tinha 9 anos de idade, depois de viver na Inglaterra por um ano, minha família mudou-se para Karachi, Paquistão, onde nós permanecemos por 3 anos, e eu ouvia... Eu tive contato com a música do Paquistão, haviam músicos, bandas e músicos locais, que tocavam nas ruas e, estranhamente, aquilo me fascinava muito. Eu sentia uma conexão forte com aquela música mágica, infinita, que parecia não ter início nem final, e eu acho que esta é uma conexão especial e emocional que eu tenho com a música até hoje em dia, a idéia de uma música que vai indo, eternamente, sem um ponto certo para acabar. 

ASTRONAUTA - Antes de juntar-se ao Kraftwerk, você fez parte de uma banda chamada "Spirits Of Sound", certo? Onde o "Spirits Of Sound" tocava, na época? E a banda chegou a gravar alguma coisa?

MICHAEL ROTHER - Minha família voltou para a Alemanha em 1963. Eu morava em Düsseldorf, com meus pais. Era um período muito empolgante, porque os novos sons musicais vindos da Inglaterra - especialmente da Inglaterra - estavam chegando na Alemanha, a música de bandas como The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks, e muitas outras. Todos, entre os meus amigos e colegas, nós todos ficamos muito impressionados por aquela música, e vários garotos resolveram que queriam aprender a tocar um instrumento. Eu juntei-me a uma banda, com os garotos da minha sala de aula, quando eu tinha 15 anos de idade. A banda se chamava "Spirits Of Sound". Eu escolhi tocar guitarra, que era algo que já havia me ocorrido quando eu morava no Paquistão, onde eu tentei criar uma guitarra a partir de um instrumento chamado Japan Banjo - eu acho que no Paquistão era chamado por outro nome, mas assim que ele foi chamado, quando apareceu no primeiro disco do NEU!, onde Klaus Dinger tocou aquele mesmo instrumento, estranhamente. 

A "Spirits Of Sound" era, naturalmente, uma banda de colégio, uma banda amadora, e nós nos sentíamos felizes em copiar nossos heróis, tentando soar como os Beatles, os Stones, e outras bandas. Esta era toda a nossa ambição. Eu adorava fazer música, tocava guitarra sempre que podia, depois de terminar minhas tarefas escolares, até o final do dia. Nossa banda era convidada para tocar em festivais colegiais e em pequenos locais na região de Düsseldorf, e assim nós fomos ficando cada vez mais populares na cidade. Então, nos quatro ou cinco anos seguintes, nós gradualmente fomos melhorando como banda, e passamos a pegar músicas de guitar heroes como Eric Clapton (com o Cream) e, mais adiante, até mesmo músicas do Jimi Hendrix, que era - e ainda é - uma grande inspiração para mim. A "Spirits Of Sound" também esteve em um estúdio de gravação, no final dos anos 60, porque fomos convidados para participar de um filme chamado "Ein Tag Ist Schöner Als Der Andere," traduzindo, mais ou menos "Cada dia é mais belo do que o outro", e nós tivemos a chance de gravar duas canções. Eu ainda tenho as fitas, nos meus arquivos e, para você ter uma idéia do que nós estavamos procurando fazer, na época, era um tipo de música que eu abandonaria logo em seguida.

ASTRONAUTA - Como foi, para você, a transição entre ser um membro do Kraftwerk e formar o NEU!, com o Klaus Dinger? 

MICHAEL ROTHER - Em 1971, quando eu tocava com o Florian Schneider e o Klaus Dinger como Kraftwerk, nós fizemos alguns concertos realmente empolgantes, grandes apresentações, mas também alguns concertos que não foram tão divertidos. Parcialmente, isto acontecia por conta dos conflitos entre os membros, mas também por causa do fato de que criávamos música no local, em tempo real, não era um tipo de música completamente premeditada. Então dependíamos muito da situação, da atmosfera e da recepção da platéia. Às vezes, quando tocávamos em algum local que não era tão bom, ou que as circunstâncias não fossem muito favoráveis, não conseguíamos criar uma música tão legal, e as brigas se tornaram grandes no Kraftwerk quando o Florian, o Klaus e eu tentamos, sem sucesso, gravar o segundo disco do Kraftwerk, no estúdio com o Conny Plank. Ficou muito claro para nós três que não continuaríamos trabalhando juntos como um trio. Klaus e eu tínhamos muito mais coisas em comum, nossa visão da música parecia ter mais em comum do que o que Florian estava procurando e então, depois de nos separarmos, Klaus Dinger e eu decidimos continuar como uma dupla. Entramos em contato com Conny Plank, perguntamos se ele gostaria de gravar conosco e foi assim que começou o NEU! Naturalmente, na época, pegamos algumas das nossas idéias, algumas músicas que havíamos tocado com o Florian, como uma visão de música, e levamos para o estúdio. Mas, como você sabe, o primeiro disco do NEU! tem uma sonoridade bem diferente e, na minha percepção, foi ali que a minha própria música começou. Há um corte bem claro com tudo que eu havia feito antes daquilo. Existem similaridades, mas era um grande passo a frente para mim, e eu acho que para o Klaus também. 

ASTRONAUTA - Como você conheceu o Roedelius e o Moebius?

MICHAEL ROTHER - Com o Klaus Dinger era possível gravar as músicas. Para mim, era uma combinação de muito sucesso. Klaus Dinger tinha qualidades que eu não tinha, e eu acho que o contrário também é verdade, então conseguiamos gravar as músicas que fazíamos. Porém, como dupla, com Klaus Dinger tocando bateria e eu tocando guitarra em shows, ao vivo, não havia muita profundidade na música. Com nossos dois instrumentos apenas, não conseguíamos criar detalhes o suficiente, então testamos diversos músicos e, olhando retrospectivamente, é óbvio que não conseguiríamos fazer funcionar, porque nossa visão da música era muito diferente - e também nossas idéais extra-musicais -, eram muito diferentes do que todos os outros músicos tinham em mente. Então meio que paramos de procurar por outros músicos. Mas daí eu descobri uma faixa do Cluster, banda que também estava trabalhando com o Conny Plank, e eu reconheci alí algumas similaridades musicais com minhas próprias idéias. Era uma faixa chamada "Im Süden", e então eu peguei minha guitarra e fui visitar o Roedelius e o Moebius em Forst, com a intenção de descobrir se eles poderiam se juntar ao NEU!, para tocar em uma tour pela Inglaterra. O selo inglês United Artists havia lançado os discos do NEU!, e também o single, e eles convidaram o NEU! para fazer uma tour pela Inglaterra, e então esta foi a razão pela qual eu fui até o interior, para visitar o Roedelius e o Moebius. E porque eu havia levado minha guitarra comigo, eu pude tocar - com o Roedelius especialmente - e, estranhamente, surpreendentemente, descobri que a música que eu tocava com o Roedelius era mais interessante para mim, inclusive, especialmente porque a combinação com os dois músicos, Moebius e Roedelius, levava, nos bons momentos, à uma música completamente fascinante. Nós podíamos tocar ao vivo e criar um quadro muito completo, com sons muito detalhados, e isto era, para mim, isto era muito empolgante, era um novo campo musical, que eu queria descobrir e desenvolver com os dois músicos. Esta foi a razão de eu ter me mudado para Forst, e a razão de eu viver aqui até hoje. 

ASTRONAUTA - Em 1976, o Brian Eno passou alguns dias com o Harmonia, em Forst. Quais são as suas memórias deste período?

MICHAEL ROTHER - Nós conhecemos o Brian Eno em 1974. O Harmonia estava tocando em Hamburgo, estávamos fazendo um concerto na Fabrik, em Hamburgo, e o Brian Eno estava visitando a Alemanha para divulgar seu disco. Então, ele descobriu que estávamos tocando lá e pediu para um jornalista que estava entrevistando-o para levá-lo ao concerto. Então, o Brian acabou chegando no local, fomos apresentados e o convidamos para visitar-nos em Forst. Passaram-se dois anos e então, dois anos depois, ele ligou e perguntou se poderia finalmente vir para Forst, nos visitar, o que não era o melhor período porque no verão de 76, o Harmonia havia acabado. Inclusive, nós três já havíamos gravado nossos próprios albuns, cada um havia gravado um álbum solo com o Conny Plank. Eu havia gravado o "Flammende Herzen", o Roedelius tinha um disco chamado "Durch Die Wüste" e o Moebius estava com uma colaboração com outros músicos, chamada "Liliental". Então, de qualquer forma, nós não quisemos decepcionar o Brian Eno. Ele já estava a caminho para trabalhar com o David Bowie e, então, nós o buscamos em Hanover, no aeroporto, e ele passou 11 ou 12 dias em Forst. Nós gostamos da sua presença, conversávamos bastante sobre música. Nós criavamos música no estúdio, mas não havia absolutamente nenhuma pressão em cima de nós porque, no nosso entendimento, estávamos somente trocando idéias sobre música e não iríamos necessáriamente lançar um disco juntos. Eu tinha um gravador de fitas de quatro canais e então, como éramos quatro músicos, cada um de nós tinha um canal. Às vezes estávamos no estúdio, todos os quatro, às vezes só três ou só dois de nós, e apenas fazíamos esboços de idéias musicais, quando não estávamos caminhando ao lado do rio Weser, ou caminhando na floresta que há na região, ou bebendo chá, ou apenas sentados na frente de casa, no sol, descansando. Então, foi um período bastante despretencioso mas, olhando para trás e ouvindo as gravações que fizemos durante aqueles 12 dias, 10 ou 12 dias, também foi um período de alto potencial musical. É muito óbvio que estávamos em um período muito criativo e relaxado. Lançamos uma versão que o Hans-Joachim Roedelius editou em 1997 e, em 2008, eu adicionei três faixas extras, extraídas da minha própria fita K-7, com mixagens que eu fiz para mim mesmo na tarde anterior à partida do Brian Eno, quando ele levou as fitas com ele. A idéia era que ele voltasse depois de finalizado seu trabalho com o David Bowie. Não ocorreu mas, felizmente, eu tinha esta minha fita K-7 como documento, e descobri que haviam várias outras belas idéias, então eu escolhi três faixas, e Roedelius e Moebius concordaram que deveríamos adicionar estas três faixas ao álbum "Tracks and Traces", que foi lançado pelo selo Grönland em 2009. E é justamente esta versão atual que eu recomendo, na verdade. É um documento de uma fase muito produtiva para os quatro músicos. 

ASTRONAUTA - Quais eram os seus principais instrumentos musicais nos anos 70? 

MICHAEL ROTHER - Bom, meus principais instrumentos nos anos setenta eram, naturalmente, minhas guitarras e alguns poucos equipamentos que eu utilizava para tratar a guitarra, como fuzz box, pedal de wha-wha, pedal de volume e também um delay, que você pode ouvir em todas as minhas gravações e que era uma parte muito importante na criação do meu som. Mas então, ainda nos anos setenta, eu comecei a trabalhar com alguns sintetizadores, especialmente Farfisa, porque eu conhecia o distribuidor da Farfisa na Alemanha. Por conta disto, acabamos com vários equipamentos da Farfisa. Os pianos e sintetizadores da Farfisa também eram utilizados pelas bandas Can e Kraftwerk, nós tínhamos alguns sons de sintetizadores e pianos Farfisa em comum. Às vezes, quando você escuta o som original dos instrumentos, sozinhos, eles soam muito pobres e não são muito interessantes. Mas, combinando com os efeitos que utilizávamos, alguns tratamentos especiais que poderiamos dar ao som, era possível criar paisagens musicais bastante interessantes. Ouça, por exemplo, a faixa "Isi", que abre o disco NEU! 75, aquilo é um Farfisa, vários sons de Farfisa, tratados com alguns equipamentos old school, muito simples, mas que davam vida ao som. Estes eram meus principais instrumentos nos anos setenta. E, porque eu não consigo me desfazer de nenhum instrumento musical que eu utilizei para criar música, eu ainda tenho quase tudo o que utilizei, ainda tenho meus equipamentos no meu pequeno museu particular. 

ASTRONAUTA - Em novembro de 2010 você tocou no Brazil. Quais são suas memórias dos concertos que fez aqui?

MICHAEL ROTHER - Bom, a tour foi bastante excitante porque, antes disso, antes de 2010, eu não havia visitado a America do Sul ainda, não havia me apresentado em nenhum dos países. E, Steve Shelley e Aaron Mullan (que tocou contra-baixo. Steve Shelley foi o baterista), nós formávamos um grande time e em 2010 fizemos, pelo que me lembro, 35 shows em vários países ao redor do mundo. Eu acho que nosso primeiro concerto aí foi em Belo Horizonte, algo assim, em um festival, que tería sido uma experiência muito agradável mas, infelizmente, um músico decidiu se suicidar. Eu não conhecia o músico mas nós estávamos fora, estávamos passeando pela cidade e conhecendo alguns locais muito bonitos pela cidade quando fomos chamados de volta ao hotel. Foi um desastre para o festival, este músico pulou do quarto do hotel... Eu não sei, acho que do vigésimo andar e então, naturalmente, havia uma sombra muito escura pairando sobre o festival e sobre nossa experiência no Brazil. Eu adoraria retornar ao Brazil, à America do Sul mais uma vez, para concertos e viagens sem acontecimentos sombrios como os de 2010.

ASTRONAUTA - Quais são seus projetos mais recentes e planos para o futuro? 

Foto: Hadley Hudson, 2001.
MICHAEL ROTHER - Recentemente, nos últimos meses, eu me apresentei em alguns concertos: o primeiro em abril, em Copenhagen, na Dinamarca (com um line-up único, juntamente com o Dieter Moebius e o Tangerine Dream), em julho eu me apresentei na minha cidade, Bevern, em um castelo histórico, e então em agosto, em um festival maravilhoso na Polônia, o OFF Festival, em Katowice. Em todos os três concertos eu convidei o baterista Hans Lampe - que tocou bateria no lado dois do disco NEU! 75 -, e também o Franz Bargmann, um guitarrista que originalmente fazia parte da banda Camera, de Berlim. Esta combinação funciona muito bem, formamos um ótimo time. No mês que vem, em setembro, estaremos tocando na Noruega, em um festival chamado Phonofestivalen. Recentemente, eu finalizei um remix para uma banda britânica chamada "Boxed In", e o Paul Weller entrou em contato, também recentemente, e perguntou se eu teria tempo para produzir algo com ele, fazer música. E eu devo retomar isto, mas existem tantos outros projetos que estou trabalhando, alguns novos instrumentos, algumas novas tecnologias e equipamentos que eu quero testar, desenvolver novas idéias. Mas eu sou grato pela oportunidade, e espero voltar à America do Sul novamente, e então talvez possamos nos encontrar aí.

Foto: Ann Weitz, 1975.
Site oficial do Michael Rother: www.michaelrother.de 


Interview with Michael Rother

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Photo: Ann Weitz, 1973.
Michael Rother was born on September 2nd, 1950, in Hamburg, Germany. His first contact with music was listening to his mother playing the music from her favorite composer, Frédéric Chopin, on the piano. During his childhood he lived in Munich (Germany), Wilmslow (England), and in Karachi (Pakistan, where he had contact with Pakistani music). After that, in early 60s, his family moved back to Germany, to Düsselfdorf, where Michael joined his first band, "Spirits Of Sound", in which he played the guitar from 1965 to 1971. Also in Düsseldorf, Michael Rother joined Florian Schneider and Klaus Dinger on Kraftwerk, during a short period of time in which Ralf Hütter had left the band to dedicate himself to his studies in architecture. With Kraftwerk, Michael Rother played in some concerts, and also did some TV and radio appearances, but more than that, he and the drummer Klaus Dinger discovered that they had more musical ideas and visions in common between the two than with Florian Schneider. Soon, Rother and Dinger left Kraftwerk to form NEU!, one of the greatest bands in Germany in the seventies, being an influential band to artists like David Bowie, Brian Eno, Iggy Pop, Joy Division, and Ultravox, among many others. NEU! recorded three essential albums in the seventies (NEU!, 1972; NEU! 2, 1973; and NEU! 75, 1975), working with another influential name of the German rock, producer Conny Plank.

In 1973, Michael Rother met Hans-Joachim Roedelius and Dieter Moebius. Together, Roedelius and Moebius were already well-known names in the German rock and experimental music scene, since late 60s, first playing with Conrad Schnitzler as Kluster, and then as a duo renaming themselves as Cluster. Michael Rother had listened to a track by Cluster, and became interested on the duo's music, first willing to ask Roedelius and Moebius to join NEU! to an tour in the UK, and then moving himself to Forst, where Rodelius and Moebius lived, to form Harmonia, another influential German band from the seventies. Harmonia's first album, "Musik Von Harmonia" was released in January, 1974. Also in 1974, Michael Rother co-produced "Zuckerzeit", Cluster's third album, and it was during a concert by Harmonia at the Fabrik, in Hamburg, that Brian Eno had contact with Rother, Roedelius and Moebius. In 1975, Harmonia released their second album, "Deluxe" (with drummer Mani Neumeier as a guest musicians in some tracks), and in the following year, on September, Brian Eno joined the trio in their house in Forst, Germany. "Tracks and Traces", an album by Harmonia and Brian Eno, was recorded during Eno's stay with the band, but the album was released only in 1997, and then re-released with extra tracks and in a very well-packaged issue via Grönland label, in 2009 (in 2007, Grönland also released another Harmonia album, "Live 1974", recorded on a concert by the trio at Penny Station, in Griessem, Germany, on March 23rd, 1974.)

Photo: Ann Weitz, 1976.
Michael Rother's solo career began in 1977, with the great album "Flammende Herzen" (co-produced by Conny Plank, and recorded at Conny's studio, between June and September, 1976). Michael Rother recorded all instruments on "Flammende Herzen", except the drums, which were recorded by Can's drummer Jaki Liebezeit. "Sterntaler", Rother's second album, also was recorded with Conny Plank and Jaki Liebezeit, and was released in 1978. "Katzenmusik", the third solo album, was released in 1979, and in 1982 Michael Rother released his fourth album, "Fernwärme", recorded in its entirely in Forst (that was the first of Michael Rother's albums to be released via Polydor Records). His following solo albums are: "Lust" (1984), "Süßherz und Tiefenschärfe" (1985), and "Traumreisen" (1987). "Radio", a compilation album from 1993, was the first album to be released via Random Records, Michael Rother's own label, and was followed by "Esperanza" (1996) and "Remember - The Great Adventure" (2004).

In November 2010 I had the opportunity to see Michael Rother live at SESC Vila Mariana, São Paulo. It was a very nice concert, in which Michael Rother, drummer Steve Shelley and bassist Aaron Mullan, played as Hallogallo 2010. An awesome concert, I must say! I contacted Michael Rother to invite for this interview some months ago, and I'm glad he found some time in his busy agenda to send me the answers to the interview in audio, which I gladly did the transcription (with some help from Mr. Rother himself). So I'm having the opportunity to publish it today, on September 2nd, Michael Rother's birthday! Thank you, Mr. Rother, and have a nice birthday!

And here's the interview:

Photo: Hadley Hudson, 2001.
ASTRONAUTA - Michael Rother, what were your first steps in music, and your first musical instruments?

MICHAEL ROTHER - My first steps in music were, of course, listening to my mother play classical piano, when I was a very young child. My mother had a classical training as a piano player, and she played her favorite composer, Chopin, Frédéric Chopin, at home. Later on, when I was about 7 and 8, my brother, who is ten years older, celebrated rock'n'roll parties at home. So, I listened to rock'n'roll music, artists like Chuck Berry, Elvis Presley, and Little Richard especially, whom I still love today.

ASTRONAUTA - In your childhood and teenage days, you moved to other countries - England, Pakistan. How did the music made in those countries influenced your life and your own music?

MICHAEL ROTHER - When I was 9 years old, after living in England for one year my family moved to Karachi, Pakistan, where we stayed for three years, and I listened... I came in contact with the music of Pakistan. There were musicians, local musicians, bands playing in the streets, and they had strange fascination for me. I felt a strong connection to the magical endless kind of music that seemed to have no beginning and no end, and I think that is an emotional and special connection I have to music up to my present days, the idea of a music that goes on forever, without a certain point of ending.

ASTRONAUTA - Before joining Kraftwerk you had a band called 'Spirits Of Sound', that's right? Where did 'Spirits Of Sound' played at the time? Did the band recorded something?

MICHAEL ROTHER - My family and I moved back to Germany in 1963. I lived in Düsseldorf with my parents. It was an exciting time because new musical sounds from England - especially England - came to Germany, music by bands like The Beatles, Rolling Stones, Kinks, and many others. Everybody, amongst my friends and colleagues, we were all impressed by that music, and so many boys had the idea to play an instrument. I joined a band of boys in my class when I was 15. The band was called "Spirits Of Sound." I choose the guitar, which was something that already appealed to me when I lived in Pakistan, where I tried to create a guitar out of a local instrument called Japan Banjo - I think the name in Pakistan was different, but that was the name on the first NEU! album, when Klaus Dinger played that same instrument, strangely.

"Spirits Of Sound" was, of course, a school band, an amateur band, and we were happy to copy our heroes, trying to sound like The Beatles, Stones, and other bands. That was all we had as an ambition. I loved playing music, I played the guitar from the moment I could, after finishing my homework from school, until the evening. Our band was invited to play at school festivals, and in other small venues around Düsseldorf, and we became quite popular in the city. So, in the following four or five years, we gradually became better as a band, and also picked up rock music by guitar heroes like Eric Clapton with Cream, and later even Jimi Hendrix, who was a big inspiration to me, and still is. "Spirits Of Sound" was in a record studio in the late 60s too, because we were invited to participate in a film called "Ein Tag Ist Schöner Als Der Andere," roughly translated "Each Day Is More Beautiful Than The Other," and we were offered the chance to record two songs. I still have the tape in my archives, and it just gives you an idea of what we, still at the time, were trying to go for, it was a sound I soon would leave behind.

ASTRONAUTA - How was the transition from being a member of Kraftwerk to form NEU! with Klaus Dinger?

MICHAEL ROTHER - In 1971, when I played with Florian Schneider and Klaus Dinger as Kraftwerk, we had some really exciting concerts and great evening, but also some concerts which were not enjoyable. It was partly due to the conflicts between the members, and also because, due to the fact that we created music on the spot, it was not a completely premeditated music, and so we were dependent on the situation, and the atmosphere, and the feedback of the crowd. Sometimes, when it was not a good venue or the circumstances were not very pleasant, we did not manage to create great music, and the struggles became bigger in Kraftwerk when Florian, Klaus and I unsuccessfully tried to record the second Kraftwerk album with Conny Plank, in the studio, and it was very clear to us that the three of us wouldn't keep on working together as a trio, and Klaus and I had much more in common, our visions of music seem to have more in common than what Florian was going for, and so after we split, Klaus Dinger and I decided to continue as a duo, and we got in touch with Conny Plank and asked him whether he would be willing to record with us and that was the beginning of the band NEU! Of course, at the time, we did take some of our ideas, some of the music we had been playing with Florian, as a vision of music, into the studio. But, as it is, the first NEU! album does sound very different and in my own perception, it is the beginning of my own music and it has a very clear cut to everything I did before that time so, there are similarities but it was a very big step for me, and I guess also for Klaus.

ASTRONAUTA - How did you meet Roedelius and Moebius?

MICHAEL ROTHER - With Klaus Dinger, it was possible for me to record music, it was a very successful combination. Klaus Dinger had the qualities I lacked, and I guess it was also the other way around, and so we managed to record the music we did. However, as a duo, with Klaus Dinger playing the drums and me playing guitar, in a live situation there was not enough depth in music, on our 2 instruments we could not create enough details, and so we tried several musicians and, looking back, it's quite clear that it couldn't work because our vision of music was different from, and that was also the idea behind the music, was different from what every other musician had in his mind, and so we more or less stopped looking for other musicians. But then I discovered a track by the band Cluster, who also worked with Conny Plank, and I recognized some musical similarity to my own ideas, it was a track called "Im Süden," and so I took my guitar and visited Roedelius and Moebius in Forst, in order to find out whether they were suited to play with NEU! on a tour to the UK. The British label United Artists had released NEU! albums, and the single, and they invited NEU! to do a tour to the UK, and so that was the reason why I went to the countryside to visit Roedelius and Moebius, and because i had my guitar with me, I was able to jam with Roedelius especially, and strangely, and surprisingly, discovered that the music I was able to play with Roedelius was even more interesting for me, especially because the combination with both musicians, Moebius and Roedelius, led in good moments to a complete and fascinating music. We could play live and create a very full picture of music, very detailed sounds, and that was, for me, it was very exciting and a whole new field of music which I wanted to discover and develop with the two musicians. That's why I moved to Forst, and that's where I still live.

ASTRONAUTA - In 1976 Brian Eno spent some days with Harmonia in Forst. What are your memories from that time?

MICHAEL ROTHER - We met Brian Eno in 1974. Harmonia was playing in Hamburg, we had a concert at Fabrik, in Hamburg, and Brian Eno was visiting Germany to promote his album, and he found out that we were playing, and then he asked a journalist who interviewed him to take him to our concert. And so, Brian ended up sitting in the venue, and we were introduced, and we invited him to visit us in Forst. It took him two years and, two years later he called and asked whether he could now come to Forst and visit us, which was not the best timing because in summer '76 Harmonia disbanded. All three of us had already recorded our own, each one a solo album, with Conny Plank. I had recorded "Flammende Herzen", Roedelius had an album called "Durch Die Wüste," and Moebius did a collaboration with another musicians, called "Liliental." So, anyway, we didn't want to turn Brian Eno down, he was on the way to working with David Bowie, and so, we picked him up in Hanover, at the airport, and he spent 11 or 12 days in Forst. We enjoyed his presence, we talked a lot about music, we made music in the studio, but there was absolutely no pressure on us because our understanding was just to exchange ideas on music and not to release an album. I had a 4-track tape recorder and so, we were four musicians and each one of us had one tracks and so, sometimes we sat in the studio, with all four of us, and sometimes only three or only two, and just made sketches of musical ideas, when we were not walking along the river Weser, or taking a walk in the forest nearby, or drinking tea, or just sitting outside in the sun and relaxing. So, this was a very relaxed period but looking back and listening to the recordings we had during those 12 days, 10 or 12 days, it was also a period of high musical potential, it is obvious that we were in a very creative and relaxed mode. We released a version which Hans-Joachim Roedelius had edited in 1997, and in 2008 I added three more tracks from my own cassette, with mixes I did for myself just on the evening before Brian Eno left and took the tapes with him, because the idea was for him to return after he finished working with David Bowie. This didn't happen but luckily I had my own cassette document, and discovered that there were even more really beautiful ideas, and I choose three tracks, and Roedelius and Moebius agreed that we should add those three tracks to the album "Tracks and Traces," and it was released on Grönland label in 2009, and that's the current version which I really recommend. It's a document of a very productive phase of all four musicians.

ASTRONAUTA - What were the main instruments that you used in the 70s?

MICHAEL ROTHER - Well, the main instruments in the seventies were, of course, my guitars and the small gear I had to treat the guitar, like fuzz box, wha-wha pedal, volume fader pedal, and also a delay you can hear on all the recordings, which was very important to create the sound. But then, in the seventies, I also started working on some synthesizers, especially Farfisa, because I got to know the main guy in Germany, the distributor of Farfisa, so we ended up with quite a lot of Farfisa gear. Farfisa pianos/synthesizers were also used by the bands Can and Kraftwerk, we had some of those sounds on Farfisa synthesizers and pianos in common. Sometimes, if you listen to the original instruments on their own, they sound quite poor and not really very interesting, but in combination with the effects that we could add, some special treatment that you could give the sound, it was possible to create interesting music landscapes, and you hear, for instance, NEU!75, the first track "Isi", that's a Farfisa, a lot of Farfisa, which was treated with some of the very simple old school gear, and suddenly you had a very lively sound. Those were my main instruments in the seventies. And, because I can't really give away musical instruments which I have used to create music, I still have that, nearly everything I have used, I have it in my own small musical museum.

ASTRONAUTA - In November 2010 you played in Brazil. What are your memories from that concerts?

MICHAEL ROTHER - Well, the tour was exciting because before that, before 2010, I had never even visited South America, not played in any of the countries. And Steve Shelley and Aaron Mullan, who played bass (Steve Shelley was the drummer), we were a great team and in 2010 we did, I think, 35 concerts in many countries around the world. I think the first concert was in - excuse my bad pronunciation - Belo Horizonte, something like that, at a festival, which would been a very pleasant experience but, unfortunately, one musician decided to commit suicide. I didn't know the musician but we were out, we were driven around town and looking at very nice places outside the town when we were called back to the hotel, and it was a disaster for the festival, this musician jumped from hotel room up... I don't know, maybe the 20th floor, and so of course it was a very dark shadow which lay across the festival and our experiences in Brazil. I would love to return to Brazil, to South America once again, and to experience concerts and travels without those dark occurrences like in 2010.

ASTRONAUTA - What are your most recent projects and plans to the future?

Photo: Hadley Hudson, 2001.
MICHAEL ROTHER - In recent months I've been playing several live shows: the first in April in Copenhagen, Denmark (in a unique lineup together with Dieter Moebius and Tangerine Dream), then in July in my hometown Bevern, in the courtyard of a historic castle, and then in August at a very wonderful festival in Poland, the OFF Festival, in Katowice. For all three concerts I invited Hans Lampe, the drummer, who played drums on the second side of NEU! 75, and also Franz Bargmann, a guitar player formerly of the Berlin based band Camera. This combination works very well, we are a good team. Next month, in September, we will be playing in Norway, at a festival called Phonofestivalen, and I just finished working on a remix for a British band called "Boxed In", and Paul Weller was recently in touch and asked whether I had time to do some production for him, produce some music, and I may come back to that, but there are also other projects I'm working on, and some new instruments, some new technical gear I want to test and develop some new ideas with. There's never enough time to take care of all the visions of music and projects that are possible. But I'm thankful for the opportunity, and I hope to see South America again and perhaps we will meet then.


Michael Rother's official website: www.michaelrother.de

Entrevista com Ramon Sender

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Ramon Sender nasceu em Madrid, Espanha, no dia 29 de outubro de 1934. A mãe de Ramon, Amparo Barayón, nasceu em Zamora, cidade localizada próxima a Portugal, e trabalhava na companhia telefônica em Madrid quando conheceu Ramon J. Sender, o pai de Ramon, um jornalista e escritor espanhol bastante conhecido. Amparo, pianista clássica, também se apresentava ocasionalmente no clube El Ateneo. Ela e Ramon se conheceram durante uma greve da companhia telefônica, a qual Ramon havia sido enviado para cobrir como jornalista. Eles passaram a viver juntos e logo seu filho Ramon nasceu. Menos de dois anos depois, Amparo deu à luz Andrea, irmã de Ramon. Era o começo da Guerra Civil Espanhola e a família teve que se separar porque Ramon J. Sender estava sendo perseguido pela milícia de direita. Ele pediu à Amparo que fosse para Zamora, sua cidade natal e possivelmente um local mais seguro para permanecer com as duas crianças, mas Zamora também já estava tomada pelas mãos dos fascistas. Ramon J. Sender estava em Madrid no período e os planos eram para que Amparo e as crianças escapassem para a França, via Portugal, então Amparo tentou conseguir um visto de saída e um passaporte. Em vão. Em agosto de 1936, o irmão de Amparo, Antonio, foi preso e assassinado, então Amparo confrontou o governo militar exigindo explicações e acabou sendo presa também. Ela permaneceu na prisão de setembro até meados de outubro de 1936, quando foi "libertada" nas mãos de um esquadrão assassino e morta à noite, em um cemitério. Ramon Sender tinha dois anos de idade e sua irmã Andrea era um bebê recém-nascido quando sua mãe foi assassinada.

Assim que Ramon J. Sender teve noticias sobre a morte da sua esposa, deu um jeito de levar os pequenos Ramon e Andrea à França, onde eles viveram por algum tempo, até março de 1939, quando o pai levou as duas crianças para New York, Estados Unidos, de navio. Ramon Sender tinha quatro anos de idade e Andrea tinha dois. Nos Estados Unidos, Ramon J. Sender decidiu ir para o Mexico e as duas crianças ficaram aos cuidados de uma mulher norte-americana chamada Julia, que tornou-se a segunda mãe de Ramon e Andrea. Exceto por alguns poucos anos que Ramon, Julia, Andrea e o esposo de Julia viveram em Clarksburg, West Virginia, a família residiu basicamente no estado de New York, onde Ramon foi incentivado por Julia a aprender a tocar piano. Ramon também se interessou pelo acordeon, parcialmente por causa de um menino gordinho que ele conhecia na escola e que era bastante popular tocando o instrumento. Então Ramon pediu a Julia um acordeon e ganhou quando completou 10 anos de idade, como um presente combinado de aniversário e natal.

Um dos principais professores de piano de Ramon Sender durante sua juventude foi o famoso pianista George Copeland, com quem Ramon estudou até 1952. Neste período, Ramon também estudou harmonia com Elliot Carter por dois anos, antes de decidir (por sugestão de George) que iria para a Itália, estudar no Conservatorio di Santa Cecilia, em Roma. Depois de algum tempo na Itália, Ramon decidiu voltar aos Estados Unidos e cursou a Brandeis University, em Boston, MA, onde estudou com Irving Fine e Harold Shapero. Em 1954, aos 19 anos de idade, Ramon Sender casou-se com sua primeira esposa, Sibyl. Quando Sibyl soube que estava grávida o casal decidiu mudar-se para New York, onde Ramon teve vários empregos e trabalhou duro para manter-se com a esposa e a filha recém nascida. Mas as coisas não estavam indo de acordo com o que Ramon e Sibyl esperavam e eles se separaram (não pela primeira e nem pela última vez).

Em 1956, Ramon Sender ficou sabendo de um concerto de música eletrônica na Martha Graham Foundation, em New York. Compareceu e este foi seu primeiro contato com a composição "Gesang Der Jünglinge", de Karlheinz Stockhausen. O evento também contou com uma palestra de Louis e Bebe Barron (o casal havia recém finalizado a primeira trilha sonora totalmente eletrônica para um longa metragem, o filme "Forbidden Planet"). Ramon foi pego pela música eletrônica e pela tape music,  e o evento sinalizou o início de um novo horizonte musical para ele. No inverno de 1957, frequentou as aulas de composição ministradas por Henry Cowell na Columbia General Studies e, no ano seguinte, viajou rumo a San Francisco, California, pela primeira vez, dirigindo de Leste a Oeste através dos Estados Unidos. Uma das primeiras coisas que Ramon Sender fez quando chegou em San Francisco foi visitar a livraria City Lights, onde ele conheceu os poetas e escritores Lawrence Ferlinghetti e Michael McClure. Ele também fez amizade com o então diretor da rádio KPFA, Alan Rich, e com o compositor Loren Rush que, a pedido de Ramon, indicou Robert Erickson como sendo o melhor professor de composição na região de San Francisco.

Ramon Sender, Michael Callahan, Pauline Oliveros
e Morton Subotnick no SFTMC.
Em 1958, Ramon retornou à Costa Leste e juntou-se à Bruderhof, uma comunidade cristã localizada perto de New York. Sender permaneceu lá por quase um ano e meio, e então decidiu retornar à Costa Oeste. De volta a San Francisco, ele se matriculou em um curso completo de estudos musicais no San Francisco Conservatory, tendo aulas de harmonia com Sol Joseph e audição, improvisação e composição com Robert Erickson. Estudou no Conservatory de 1959 a 1962 e neste período, nas aulas de Erickson, ele conheceu a Pauline Oliveros e reencontrou o Loren Rush. No seu segundo ano no conservatório, ele interessou-se em adicionar fitas pré-gravadas às suas composições e passou a utilizar a sala de aula de Robert Erickson como seu estúdio de gravação. Durante o verão seguinte, ele decidiu construir um estúdio de música eletrônica no sótão do San Francisco Conservatory e, utilizando um martelo e uma talhadeira, fez uma sala para abrigar o estúdio. Em outubro de 1961, o estúdio de música eletrônica estava pronto, com equipamentos coletados, construídos e adquiridos por Ramon Sender. O concerto de inauguração do estúdio foi chamado de Sonics e, na sequência, uma série de seis Sonics aconteceu, entre dezembro de 1961 e junho de 1962, com peças de compositores como Pauline Oliveros, Morton Subotnick, Terry Riley, Bruno Maderna, Luciano Berio e James Tenney, entre tantos outros. Ramon Sender teve suas composições "Transversals" (1961), "Kronos" (1962), "Parade" (1962) e "Tropical Fish Opera" (1962) apresentadas pela primeira vez em alguns destes concertos. O último dos Sonics aconteceu no dia 11 de junho de 1962 e, logo em seguida, Ramon Sender e Morton Subotnick fundaram oficialmente o San Francisco Tape Music Center, juntando seus equipamentos e mudando-se para uma antiga casa vitoriana localizada na Jones Street, número 1537, em Russian Hill, San Francisco. Neste local eles permaneceram por alguns meses antes de mudarem-se novamente, desta vez para uma casa no número 321 da Divisadero Street (não antes de um incêndio acontecer no casarão antigo da Jones Street.) A última apresentação na Jones Street foi "City Scale", um happening escrito e dirigido por Ramon Sender, Anthony Martin e Ken Dewsey, para o qual uma grande parte da cidade de San Francisco foi utilizada como palco.

A maior parte dos concertos e gravações do San Francisco Tape Music Center aconteceu na Jones Street, 1537 e na Divisadero, 321, e a história sobre este período é muito bem contada em um livro originalmente publicado em 2008, "The San Francisco Tape Music Center - 1960s Counterculture And The Avant-Garde", escrito por David W. Bernstein. Ramon Sender também tem sua versão sobre os fatos do período, publicados em uma novela que mistura fatos reais com ficção, chamada "Naked Close-Up", publicada em 2012 pela Intelligent Arts. Algumas das composições de Ramon que datam deste período incluem "Triad" (1962), "Balances" (1964) e também sua peça mais conhecida, "Desert Ambulance" (1964). No final de 1964, Don Buchla projetou e entregou o protótipo do seu Electronic Music Box Series 100 - ou simplesmente 'Buchla Box' -, encomendado por Ramon Sender e Morton Subotnick para o San Francisco Tape Music Center. O SFTMC também foi palco da estréia de "In C", famosa composição de Terry Riley, em novembro de 1964. Os membros do SFTMC também foram responsáveis por várias mudanças e inovações nas artes multimídia, incluíndo dança, poesia, filmes e projeções de luz nas suas performances. O Centro também foi um dos primeiros pontos de intersecção entre as artes de vanguarda, a música eletrônica acadêmica e a cultura pop-rock-hippie-psicodélica que estava emergindo em San Francisco na época. Ramon Sender, Stewart Brand, Ken Kesey e Bill Graham formaram o time de produção responsável pelo famoso Trips Festival, que aconteceu entre 21 e 23 de janeiro de 1966, no Longshoremen's Hall. Um marco e um divisor de águas na história da cena artística e comportamental de San Francisco, o festival contou com bandas como The Grateful Dead, Big Brother and the Holding Company (antes da Janis Joplin juntar-se ao grupo) e The Loading Zone, juntamente com o poeta e escritor Allen Ginsberg, o aparato de som e luz de Don Buchla, as projeções visuais de Anthony Martin, a performance "America Needs Indians" de Strewart Brand e também os Merry Pranksters.

Depois do Trips Festival, Ramon Sender decidiu sair em retiro no deserto por algum tempo. Naquele ponto, o San Francisco Tape Music Center - posteriormente chamado de Center For Contemporary Music - estava prestes a mudar para o Mills College (uma das condições para que o SFTMC recebesse uma grande gratificação em dinheiro da Rockefeler Foundation era que o grupo se associasse à alguma instituição ou universidade). Morton Subotnick já havia aceito um convite para mudar-se para New York, então a nova configuração do Centro ficou sendo Pauline Oliveros como diretora geral, William Maginnis como diretor técnico e Anthony Martin como diretor visual. Ramon, que algum tempo antes havia conhecido o jornalista e ex-baixista dos Limeliters Lou Gottlieb, decidiu juntar-se a ele e fundar uma comunidade chamada Morning Star Ranch.

Durante sua vida e carreira posteriores ao San Francisco Tape Music Center, Ramon Sender viveu em algumas comunidades, a maior parte delas na região de San Francisco. Ramon tem várias histórias sobre antes, durante e depois do San Francisco Tape Music Center, e você pode encontrar algumas delas em uma longa entrevista que Ramon concedeuà Tessa Updike e à MaryClare Brzytwa em abril de 2014, como parte do San Francisco Conversatory's Oral History Project. Há 10 anos, nos dias 1 e 2 de outubro de 2004, Ramon Sender, Pauline Oliveros, Morton Subotnick, Tony Martin e Bill Maginnis reuniram-se para um evento no Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, em Troy, NY, para celebrar o San Francisco Tape Music Center. O evento foi filmado e é parte do livro de David W. Bernstein sobre o SFTMC, que eu mencionei anteriormente.

Meu contato com Ramon Sender para esta entrevista foi feito via email. Ele gentilmente encontrou tempo para responder algumas questões sobre pontos específicos da sua vida e carreira como compositor e membro fundador do San Francisco Tape Music Center. É um prazer e uma honra contatar e entrevistar este grande compositor, este grande artista e esta figura humana tão gentil! Sou muito grato ao Ramon Sender! E agora, a entrevista! Viva Ramon Sender!


ASTRONAUTA - Ramon Sender, quais são as suas memórias musicais mais antigas? Como e quando você percebeu que a música era algo importante na sua vida? 

RAMON SENDER - Minhas memórias musicais mais antigas são da minha mãe, quando eu tinha por volta de um ano de idade. Ela era pianista clássica e estava tocando Albeniz. Havia também um garoto gordinho na sala de aula, na primeira série, que tocava acordeon. Eu queria ser como ele e tocar acordeon também. Comecei a ter aulas de piano, mas eu dizia para minha mãe americana que eu queria ter um acordeon. Quando eu tinha dez anos de idade ela me deu um, como presente de aniversário e natal juntos. Eu nunca tive aulas, mas prendi a tocar músicas que eu ouvia no rádio e também aprendi como utilizar os acordes corretamente, só praticando.

ASTRONAUTA - Como você passou a se interessar por música eletrônica e manipulações de fitas?

RAMON SENDER - Eu fui a um concerto do Composers Forum em New York City, em 1956, e ouvi "Gesange der Jünglinge", do Stockhausen. Imediatamente eu saí e aluguei um wire recorder (era o único tipo de gravador disponível na época).

ASTRONAUTA - Quais as suas lembranças da primeira vez que você encontrou com Pauline Oliveros? E com Morton Subotnick e William Maginnis? 

RAMON SENDER - Pauline ocasionalmente aparecia nas aulas de composição do Robert Erickson no Conservatório, em 1959, 1960, como ex-aluna dele na San Francisco State University. Como colegas de acordeon e sendo ambos admiradores de Erickson como professor e compositor, nos tornamos grandes amigos e permanecemos assim por todos estes anos. Uma visão fantástica desta época está no meu e-book de 'ficção histórica'"Naked Close-Up", disponível online.

Em 1961 eu construi um estúdio de música eletrônica primitivo, no sotão do Conservatório, e comecei uma série de concertos chamada de "Sonics". Nós incluímos improvisação ao vivo no concerto (Erickson era um grande entusiasta da improvisação e transmitia este entusiasmo para todos os seus alunos de composição). Depois do concerto, Subotnick veio até o palco e perguntou "Posso tocar também?" Então colaboramos em vários outros concertos que planejamos para a temporada de inverno. Em junho do ano seguinte, nos mudamos para nosso próprio local, fora do Conservatório.

Bill Maginnis descreve assim a maneira como nos conhecemos: "Eu fui até o Tape Center, atravessando a rua, porque eu precisava copiar uma fita, e me apresentei a Ramon. 'Você conhece alguma coisa de eletrônica?' ele perguntou. 'Bom, sim', eu respondi. Você saberia como construir um ring modulator?''Sim, eu acho que sim', eu respondi. Ramon pegou um punhado de chaves e começou a separar algumas. 'Aqui está a chave da porta da frente, aqui está a do estúdio', ele disse. 'Você é nosso novo técnico'.

Tony Matin, Bill Maginnis, Ramon Sender,
Morton Subotnick e Pauline Oliveros.
Nós pagávamos um pequeno salário a Bill, e também arrumamos uma bancada de trabalho para ele, em um canto. Ele era fantástico e mantinha tudo funcionando, além de ser um compositor talentoso também. Uma das suas peças eletrônicas está entre as minhas favoritas - "Life Time", que foi realizada batendo um oscilador de alta frequência contra a frequência do cabeçote de gravação. Os diferentes sons gerados foram então manipulados um pouco por ele. A peça causa uma sensação estranha, etérea, que eu gosto.

Posso colocar uma cópia dela nos meus arquivos compartilhados do dropbox, e você pode baixa-la:


Várias peças minhas estão disponíveis também na mesma pasta pública (áudio apenas):

The Tropical Fish Opera

Desert Ambulance (sem as projeções)

gayatri_final mix.aup

Xmas Me-Ushas.mp3

Audition sample.mp3

Worldfood XII sample.mp3

100 Favorite Classical Masterpieces-FINAL.mp3

ASTRONAUTA - Como surgiu a idéia de vocês utilizarem projeções durante os concertos de música eletrônica? E como você conheceu Elias Romero e Tony Martin? 

RAMON SENDER - Quando fizemos a peça "City Scale", em dezembro de 1962, um dos eventos era levar o público (em um grande caminhão) até a igreja abandonada que era utilizada pelo San Francisco Mime Troupe, em Mission Distict, para assistir a um light show de Elias Romero. Foi minha primeira experiência com projeções líquidas, e logo percebi que as projeções poderiam funcionar como um elemento visual nos nossos concertos. Você não faz idéia da importância do elemento visual em um concerto até que ele não está mais lá. Então fui até o meu amigo Tony, um pintor expressionista abstrato, e pedi para ele que juntasse ao nosso time e compusesse a parte gráfica para nossas peças. Ele estava relutante no começo, mas eu consegui com que ele desse o braço a torcer!

ASTRONAUTA - Quais suas lembranças do seu primeiro contato com Don Buchla? E como a chegada do 'Buchla Box', em 1964, mudou o processo de composição no San Fancisco Tape Music Center?

Bill Maginnis e Ramon Sender com o
'Buchla Box'.
RAMON SENDER - Nós estávamos desesperados para conseguirmos uma mesa de mixagem, alguns pré-amplificadores, etc. Mas também procurávamos por alguém que pudesse projetar o 'instrumento dos nossos sonhos'. Buchla veio em um dos nossos concertos - ou talvez ele tenha respondido um anúncio que colocamos no jornal.

Se o 'Buchla Box' mudou o processo de composição no nosso centro? Para Subotnick, quase imediatamente. Para Pauline mais gradualmente, principalmente quando o SFTMC foi transferido para o Mills College e ela assumiu a direção. Eu estava no meio do processo de sair da cidade quando o Buchla chegou mas então, no inverno de 1967-1968, eu precisava de um emprego e Don me permitiu soldar as placas de circuito e viver na sua oficina. Na oficina, nós tínhamos um estúdio completo com equipamentos Buchla e eu passei um período muito feliz por lá.

ASTRONAUTA - Ao que parece, San Francisco foi um dos primeiros lugares do mundo a romper as fronteiras entre a música eletrônica acadêmica e o pop-rock psicodélico e eletrificado, e o San Francisco Tape Music Center foi um dos grandes responsáveis para que isto ocorresse. E, na minha opinião, o Trips Festival foi algo como o ponto crucial, marcando o final de uma era e, ao mesmo tempo, o começo de outra era para o SFTMC como um grupo, para você como artista e também para a emergente cena rock da região, formada por bandas como The Grateful Dead e Big Brother and the Holding Company, que acabaram ficando muito famosas depois do festival. Minha pergunta é, como você vê o Trips Festival, agora que quase 50 anos se passaram desde aquele final de semana em janeiro de 1966? Quais foram as maiores dificuldades para a realização do festival, e quais as coisas mais gratificantes? Você faria algo diferente se tivesse a chance de organizar o Trips Festival novamente?

'Ramon Sender tocando o 'Buchla Box'
no Trips Festival, 1966
Foto: Susan Hillyard.
RAMON SENDER - Em 1965 eu estava começando a enjoar do formato dos nossos concertos no Centro. Eu queria fazer algo que eu chamava de "Sunday Morning Church", que incluiria todas as religiões antigas e misteriosas, como o Mitraísmo. Eu comentei sobre o assunto com meu amigo Tony, que me disse que havia um fotografo, Stewart Brand, fazendo um show miltimídia, com slides, chamado "America Needs Indians". Então eu fui falar com Stewart e nós trocamos algumas idéias durante um final de semana no Eselen Institute, em Big Sur. Poucos meses depois, ele me telefonou e disse que Ken Kesey estava na cidade, organizando o Acid Test com o Grateful Dead. Eu fui à sua apresentação no Fillmore e uma semana depois, talvez um pouco mais, o Stewart me chamou e disse que "Kesey queria organizar um final de semana inteiro de concertos, que ele chamaria de 'The Trips Festival'."Ele juntaria os grupos mais interessantes da região. Então nós entramos e passamos a trabalhar na idéia, mais ou menos como 'co-produtores'. Como as energias estavam ficando mais fortes, nós contratamos o Bill Graham, que havia justamente produzido um  evento bem sucedido, beneficiente para o Mime Troupe, e ele passou a ser o nosso "faz tudo". E ele fez um ótimo trabalho.

O que eu faria de diferente, se refizessemos o festival? Meu sonho era passar o som do Big Brother pelo ring modulator do Buchla, e então gradualmente mudar a modulação, sem que as pessoas soubessem exatamente o que estava acontecendo. Mas eu estava tão atarefado com os detalhes práticos e, apesar de estarmos com o Buchla em uma plataforma central, tudo o que fizemos foi toca-lo junto com várias bandas. 

ASTRONAUTA - E, uma última pergunta, quais são seus planos (e visões) para o futuro, como artista e como ser humano? 

RAMON SENDER - Meus planos futuros como artista/ser humano são, em primeiro lugar, continuar a entoar a oração Gayatri para o sol todas as manhãs. É a oração mais antiga que conhecemos, e em sânscrito é assim:

"Om, Bhur, Bhuvaha,
Svar, Tat Savitur Varenyam, Bhargo Deevasya
Dheemahee, Dyo Yo Naha Prachodayat,
Om Tat Sat."

Ou, caso você prefira em inglês, aqui está minha tradução pessoal: 

"Aum, oh earth, oh air, oh golden light,
Oh, that brilliance most adored!
We drink the splendor of that One who
inspires our heartbeats to quicken with love."

Em português:

"Aum, oh terra, oh ar, oh luz dourada,
Oh, brilho mais adorado!
Nós bebemos o esplendor daquele que
inspira nossos corações baterem acelerados, com amor."

E então eu digo "Que todos os serem fiquem em paz, com saúde e felizes para sempre," e peço por bençãos especiais para minha esposa, minhas crianças, netos, animais de estimação, etc.

É para concentrar-me nas descobertas do projeto descrito aqui:
http://www.raysender.com/obeata.html

E, mais recentemente, no livro que eu estou polindo ainda, mas que está descrito aqui:
www.raysender.com/touchingnirvana.html
Eu pretendo ter a versão final pronta no meu 80º aniversário.

Aqui tem um sumário de uma página:
http://www.raysender.com/universalpanacea
(veja também a cópia em anexo)

Aqui, uma entrevista:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaju5XaGvII

E aqui três vídeos meus demonstrando vários exercícios:

Purring To Nirvana

Te desejo tudo de bom!
Ramon

ASTRONAUTA - Muito obrigado pela oportunidade de entrevista-lo, Ramon!
Tudo de bom para você!
Astronauta Pinguim

Site oficial do Ramon Sender: www.raysender.com

Ramon Sender com Riqui, 2014. Foto: Tessa Updike
"A Death in Zamora", livro de Ramon Sender.
Morton Subotnick e Ramon Sender.
Ramon Sender, foto de Cathy Akers.

Interview with Ramon Sender

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Ramon Sender was born in Madrid, Spain, on October 29, 1934. Ramon's mother, Amparo Barayón, was born in Zamora, near Portugal, and was working to the phone company in Madrid when she met Ramon J. Sender, Ramon's father, a very well-known Spanish journalist and writer. Amparo, a concert pianist, also performed occasionally at El Ateneo, an artists' club. Amparo and Ramon met each other during a period when the phone company went out on strike, and Ramon was at the strike meeting, covering as a journalist. They started to live together and soon their first Ramon was born. Less than two years later Amparo gave birth to Andrea, their second child. It was during the beginning of the Spanish Civil War, and the family had to split because Ramon J. Sender was being persecuted by the right wing militia. He told Amparo to go to Zamora, her hometown as a safer place to stay with the two children, but Zamora was already in the hands of the fascists. Ramon J. Sender was in Madrid at that point, and the plans were for Amparo and the kids to escape via Portugal to France, so Amparo tried to apply for an exit visa and a passport, but it was denied. In August 1936, Amparo's brother Antonio was sent to prison and killed, so Amparo went to confront the military government about that, and was also put in jail. She was in prison from September to mid-October 1936, when she was "released" to an assassination squad and shot that night in the cemetery. Ramon Sender was two-years old and Andrea was a nursing baby when their mother was killed.

As soon as Ramon J. Sender had news about his wife's death, he managed to bring young Ramon and Andrea to France, where they lived for some time until March 1939, when the father took his two children to New York, USA, by sea. Ramon Sender was four years-old and Andrea was two. In the USA, Ramon J. Sender decided to go to Mexico, and the two kids were fostered by an american woman named Julia Davis, who became Ramon's and Andrea's second mother. Except for a couple of years that Ramon, Andrea, Julia, and Julia's husband lived in Clarksburg, West Virginia, the family basically lived in the New York State, where Ramon was encouraged by Julia to play the piano. Ramon also became interested on playing the accordion, partly because of a fat kid he knew at school who was very popular playing the instrument. So Ramon asked Julia and when he was 10-years old he got an accordion, as a birthday/Christmas gift.

One of Ramon Sender's main piano teachers during his youth was the concert pianist George Copeland, with whom Ramon studied until 1952. In this period Ramon also studied harmony with Elliot Carter for two years, before he decided (at George's suggestion) to go to Italy to study at Conservatorio di Santa Cecilia, in Rome. After some time in Italy, Ramon decided to come back to the USA and attended the Brandeis University in Boston, MA, where he studied with Irving Fine and Harold Shapero. In 1954, aged 19, Ramon Sender married his first wife Sibyl. When Sibyl knew she was pregnant they decided to come back to New York, to live there. In NYC, Ramon Sender had several jobs, and worked hard to make a living with his wife and newborn daughter, but things weren't exactly what he and Sibyl expected, and they separated (not for the first time, neither for the last).

In 1956 Ramon Sender was told about an electronic music concert at Martha Graham Foundation, in NYC, attended and it was his first contact with the composition "Gesang Der Jünglinge," by Karlheinz Stockhausen. The concert also included a lecture by Louis and Bebe Barron (the couple had recently worked on the first all-electronic soundtrack for a full-length movie, "Forbidden Planet"). Ramon was caught by electronic and tape music, and it was the beginning of a new musical horizon for him. In the winter of 1957 he attended Henry Cowell's composition classes at Columbia General Studies, and in the next year he went to San Francisco, CA, for the first time, driving from coast to coast thru the USA. One of the first things that Ramon Sender did in San Francisco was to go to City Lights - the bookstore -, where he met Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Michael McClure. He also became friends with Alan Rich (who was the musical director of KFPA radio), and composer Loren Rush, who indicated Robert Erickson as the best composition teacher in the San Francisco area.

Ramon Sender, Michael Callahan, Pauline Oliveros, and
Morton Subotnick at the SFTMC.
In 1958, he came back to the East Coast and joined the Bruderhof, a Christian community located near New York. Sender stayed there for almost an year and a half, but decided to go back to the West Coast.  Back in San Francisco he signed for a full course of study at the San Francisco Conservatory, studying harmony with Sol Joseph and ear training, improvisation, and composition with Robert Erickson. Sender studied at the Conservatory from 1959 to 1962, and there (at Erickson classes), he met Pauline Oliveros and re-met Loren Rush. On his second year at the Conservatory, Sender became interested in adding pre-recorded tapes to his compositions, and used Robert Erickson's classroom as his recording studio. During the next Summer he decided to build an electronic music studio in the attic of the San Francisco Conservatory and using a hammer and a cold chisel he built a partition to enclose the space. By October 1961 the electronic music studio was ready, with equipment collected, built, and bought by Ramon Sender. The grand opening concert for the studio was called Sonics, and a series of six Sonics concerts happened from December 1961 to June 1962, with compositions from composers such as Pauline Oliveros, Morton Subotnick, Terry Riley, Bruno Maderna, Luciano Berio, and James Tenney, among many others. Ramon Sender had his compositions "Transversals" (1961), "Kronos" (1962), "Parade" (1962), and "Tropical Fish Opera" (1962) premiered at the Sonics series. The last of the Sonics happened on June 11, 1962 and soon after that Ramon Sender and Morton Subotnick established the San Francisco Tape Music Center, joining their equipment and moving to an old Victorian house at 1537 Jones Street, in Russian Hill, San Francisco, where they stayed for some months before moving to 321 Divisadero Street (not before a fire incident at Jones Street). The last performance at Jones Street was "City Scale," a happening written and directed by Ramon Sender, Anthony Martin, and Ken Dewey, in which a big part of San Francisco was used as the stage.

Most of the San Francisco Tape Music Center concerts and recordings happened at 1537 Jones Street and at 321 Divisadero Street, and its history is told on a book originally published in 2008, "The San Francisco Tape Music Center - 1960s Counterculture And The Avant-Garde", written by David W. Bernstein. Ramon also has his own version of the period, a reality fiction novel called "Naked Close-Up", published in 2012 by Intelligent Arts. Some of Ramon's compositions from that time include "Triad" (1962), "Balances" (1964), and also his most well-known piece, "Desert Ambulance" (1964). In late 1964 Don Buchla designed and delivered the prototype of his Electronic Music Box Series 100 - or simply 'Buchla Box' -, requested by Ramon Sender and Morton Subotnick for the SFTMC. The Center was also the stage for the premiere of Terry Riley's "In C" on November 1964. The members of the SFTMC also changed things in multimedia arts, including dance, poetry, films, and light projections on their performances, and the Center was also one of the first intersections between the Avant-Garde arts and the pop-rock-hippie-psychedelic culture that was emerging in San Francisco at the time. Ramon Sender, Stewart Brand, Ken Kesey, and Bill Graham formed the production team responsible for the famous Trips Festival on January 21-23, 1966 at Longshoremen's Hall. A mark and a watershed on the history of the San Francisco scene, the festival included bands such as The Grateful Dead, Big Brother and the Holding Company (before Janis Joplin joined the band), and The Loading Zone, along with poet and writer Allen Ginsberg, Don Buchla's sound and light console, Anthony Martin's visual projections, Stewart Brand's "America Needs Indians" performance, and the Merry Pranksters.

After the Trips Festival, Ramon Sender decided to retreat in the desert for a while. At that point, the San Francisco Tape Music Center - later called Center For Contemporary Music - was about to move to the Mills College (one of the conditions for a Rockefeller Foundation grant was to associate the SFTMC with an Institution or University). Morton Subotnick had already accepted an invitation to go to New York, so the new configuration of the Center was Pauline Oliveros as the director, William Maginnis as the technical director, and Anthony Martin as the visual director. Ramon, who had met the journalist and ex-Limeliters bass player Lou Gottlieb earlier, decided to join Lou to found a community called Morning Star Ranch.

During his life and career after the San Francisco Tape Music Center, Ramon Sender lived in some communities, most of them near San Francisco. Ramon has lots of stories about before and after the San Francisco Tape Music Center, and you can find some of them in a long interview that Ramon gave to Tessa Updike and MaryClare Brzytwa on April 2014, as part of the San Francisco Conservatory's Oral History Project. On October 1 and 2, 2004 Ramon Sender, Pauline Oliveros, Morton Subotnick, Tony Martin, and Bill Maginnis reunited to an event at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute in Troy, NY, to celebrate the San Francisco Tape Music Center. The event was filmed and it is part of David W. Bernstein's book on SFTMC, that I've mentioned before.

My contact with Ramon Sender to this interview was via email. He kindly found time to answer to an interview on some points about his life and career as a composer and founding member of the San Francisco Tape Music Center. It's a pleasure and honor to contact and to interview such a great composer and artist, and such a gentle human being! I'm very grateful to Ramon Sender! And now, the interview! Viva Ramon Sender!


ASTRONAUTA - Ramon Sender, what are your earliest musical memories? And how and when did you realize that music was something important in you life?

RAMON SENDER - My earliest musical memories are of my mother when I was around 1 year old, who trained as a concert pianist, playing Albeniz. There was a fat boy in my first grade class who played accordion. I wanted to be just like him and play accordion too. I began piano lessons, but always asked my American mother about having an accordion. When I was ten years old, she gave me one as a combined birthday-Christmas present. I never had lessons, but learned to play tunes that I heard on the radio and also learned how to use chords correctly by practicing on it.

ASTRONAUTA - How did you become interested in electronic music and in tape manipulations?

RAMON SENDER - I attended a Composers Forum concert in New York City in 1956 and heard Stockhausen's "Gesange der Jünglinge." I immediately went out and rented a wire recorder (only kind available at that time.

ASTRONAUTA - What are your memories from the first time you met Pauline Oliveros? And how about Morton Subotnick and William Maginnis?

RAMON SENDER - Pauline occasionally dropped by Robert Erickson's composition class at the Conservatory in 1959-60 as a previous student of his from San Francisco State University. As fellow-accordionists and mutual admirers of Erickson as a teacher and composer, we became very good friends and remained so over the years. A whimsical look at those times are in my 'historical fiction' e-book "Naked Close-Up" available on line (here).

In 1961 I built a primitive electronic music studio in the Conservatory's attic and began a concert series titled "Sonics." We included a live improvisations on the concert (Erickson was a great improvisation enthusiast and passed this on to all his composition students). After the concert, Subotnick came up to the stage and asked, "Can I play too?" So we collaborated on the various other concerts we planned for that winter season. By June on the following year, we had moved into our own space outside the Conservatory.

The way Bill Maginnis describes how we met: "I walked into the Tape Center off the street because I needed to copy a tape and introduced myself to Ramon. 'Do you know anything about electronics?' he asked. 'Well, yes,' I replied. 'Do you know how to build a ring modulator?''Yes, I think so,' I replied. Ramon got out a bunch of keys and began taking some of them off it. 'Here's the one for the front door, here's the one to the studio,' he said. 'You are our new technician.'

We paid Bill a small salary and set him up a work bench in one corner. He was a terrific asset and kept everything running, as well as being a talented composer himself. One of his electronic pieces is amongst my favorites - "Life Time" - that he made by beating a high frequency oscillator against the frequency of the record head. The difference tones created he then manipulated a little. The piece has a strange, eerie other-world feeling that I like.

I could put a copy into my shared 'public' dropbox are and you can download it here:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65756393/Lifetime-Maginnis.aiff

Various pieces of mine are also available in the same public folder (audio only):
The Tropical Fish Opera
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65756393/Tropical%20Fish%20Opera.mp4

Desert Ambulance (without projections)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65756393/Desert%20Amb%20performance.m4a

gayatri_final mix.aup
https://dl.dropboxusersontent.com/u/65756393/gayatri_final%20mix.aup

Xmas Me-Ushas.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65756393/Xmas%20Me-Ushas.mp3

Audition sample.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65756393/Audition%20sample.mp3

Worldfood XII sample.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65756393/Worldfood%20XII%20sample.mp3

100 Favorite Classical Masterpieces-FINAL.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65756393/100%20Favorite%20Classical%20Masterpieces-FINAL.mp3

ASTRONAUTA - How came the idea of using light projections during the electronic music concerts? And how did you meet Elias Romero and Tony Martin?

RAMON SENDER - When we did the "City Scale" piece in December 1962, one of the events was to take the audience (in a large truck) to the San Francisco Mime Troupe's abandoned church in the Mission District to see a light show by Elias Romero. This was my first experience with liquid projections and I saw right away that projections could work as a visual elements in our concerts. You don't realize how important the visual element in a normal concert until it's no longer there. I approached my abstract expressionist painter friend Tony and begged him to come on our team and compose graphics for our pieces. He was reluctant at first, but I managed to twist his arm!

ASTRONAUTA - What are your memories about your first meeting with Don Buchla? And how did the arrival of the 'Buchla Box', in 1964, change the compositional process at the San Francisco Tape Music Center?

Bill Maginnis and Ramon Sender with the
'Buchla Box'.
RAMON SENDER - We were in desperate need of a main mixing board, some pre-amps, etc, but also looking for someone who could designed our 'dream instrument' for us. Buchla came to one of our concerts - or perhaps answered an ad we ran in the newspaper.

Did the Buchla Box change the compositional process at our center? For Subotnick almost immediately. For Pauline more gradually, but more once the Center moved to Mills College and she took over as director. I was in the process of leaving the city when the Buchla first arrived, but then during the winter of 1967-68 I needed a job and Don allowed me to stuff circuit boards for him and live in his manufacturing warehouse. In the warehouse he had a complete Buchla studio set up and I spent happy hours there.

ASTRONAUTA - It seems that San Francisco was the first place in the world to really blur the boundaries between the academic electronic music and the psychedelic-pop-rock electrified music, and the San Francisco Tape Music Center was the main responsible for that. And, in my opinion, the Trips Festival was something like the turning point, meaning the end of an era and, at the same time, the beginning of another era for the San Francisco Tape Music Center as a group, for you as an artist, and also for the emerging rock scene, bands like Grateful Dead, and Big Brother and the Holding Company, that became very very famous from that point on. My question is, how do you see the Trips Festival now that almost fifty years had passed since that weekend in January 1966? What were the most difficult things to make the festival happen, and what were the most rewarding things? Would you do something different if you had the chance to remake the Trips Festival?

Ramon Sender playing the 'Buchla Box'
at the Trips Festival, 1966
Photo: Susan Hillyard.
RAMON SENDER - In 1965 I was getting a little burned out with our concert format at the Center. I wanted to do something I was calling "Sunday Morning Church" but it was going to offer all the ancient mystery religions such as Mithraism. I spoke about it to my friend Tony who said that there was a photographer, Stewart Brand, doing multimedia slide shows titled "America Needs Indians." So I spoke to Stewart and we traded some ideas during a weekend at the Eselen Institute in Big Sur. A few months later he phoned me to say that Ken Kesey was in the city and doing the Acid Test with the Grateful Dead. I attended their performance at The Fillmore, and a week or so later Stewart called and said that "Kesey wants to do a whole weekend of concerts he is calling 'The Trips Festival'." It would bring together the most interesting performing groups in the area. So we worked on the idea as more or less 'co-producers.' As the energies become stronger, we hired Bill Graham who had just produced a successful benefit for the Mime Troupe, as our 'put-it-all-together' person. He did a great job.

What would I do different if we did it again? My dream had been to run Big Brother's sound through the Buchla's ring modulator and then very very gradually increase the modulation so that people would not be directly aware of what was happening. But I got all wound up in the practical details and, although we did have the Buchla on the center platform, all we did was play along with various bands.

ASTRONAUTA - And, one last question, what are your plans (and visions) for the future, as an artist and as an human being?

RAMON SENDER - My future plan as an artist/human being is first of all, to continue chanting the Gayatri prayer to the sun every morning. It is the oldest prayer known to us, and in Sanskrit it transliterates as:

"Om, Bhur, Bhuvaha,
Svar, Tat Savitur Varenyam, Bhargo Deevasya
Dheemahee, Dyo Yo Naha Prachodayat,
Om Tat Sat."

Or if you prefer it in English, here is my personal translation:

"Aum, oh earth, oh air, oh golden light,
Oh, that brilliance most adored!
We drink the splendor of that One who
inspires our heartbeats to quicken with love."

I then say "May all beings be peace, healthy, and happy forever," and ask for special blessings for my wife, my children, Grandchildren, friends, pets, etc.

Is to concentrate on discovering the project outlined here:
http://www.raysender.com/obeata.html

and more recently in a small booklet that I am still polishing, but online here:
www.raysender.com/touchingnirvana.html

I intend to have the final version to hand out at my eightieth birthday.
And as a one-page summary here:
http://www.raysender.com/universalpanacea
(also see attached copy)

Also interviews here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qaju5XaGvII

And my three videos demonstrating various exercises here:
Purring to Nirvana:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvyW3-2QSeQ

And Purring to Nirvana II:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcwzMupl20M

And Resonating to Nirvana demo here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpc6uyyz7bw

And a companion article:
http://raysender.com/resonating.html

Touching Nirvana:
https://wwwyoutube.com/watch?v=ZpVqhRJul_E

And an older technical explanation behind purring here:
http://www.raysender.com/purring_3-30-14.html

http://www.raysender.com/trachealresonance.html

Best Wishes,
Ramon

ASTRONAUTA - Thank you so much for the opportunity to interview you, sir!
All the best!
Astronauta Pinguim

Ramon Sender's website: www.raysender.com

Ramon Sender with Riqui, 2014. Photo: Tessa Updike.
"A Death in Zamora", by Ramon Sender.
Morton Subotnick and Ramon Sender.
Ramon Sender, photo by Cathy Akers.


Entrevista com Andrew Rudin

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Charles Andrew Rudin nasceu na cidade de Newgulf, no Texas, em 10 de abril de 1939. Ele interessou-se por música muito cedo, ainda na infância, e começou a ter aulas de piano aos 7 anos de idade com Lila Crow, a única professora de piano de Newgulf. Ela também levava o jovem aluno para assistir operas em Houston, Texas. Algum tempo depois, Andrew Rudin estudou também trombone e violoncelo, além de compôr suas primeiras peças, aos 15 anos de idade.

Em 1957, Rudin ingressou na University of Texas, em Austin. Nesta mesma época ele conheceu alguns trabalhos de compositores experimentais europeus, incluíndo a musique concrète de Pierre Schaeffer, a elektronische musik de Karlheinz Stockhausen e a tape music de Vladimir Ussachevsky e Otto Luening. No início dos anos 60, ele deixou a University of Texas e mudou-se para a Philadelphia, onde ingressou na University of Pennsylvania, onde estudou com os compositores George Rochberg, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Ralph Shapey e Hugo Weisgall. Depois da sua graduação, Andrew juntou-se ao corpo docente da Philadelphia Musical Academy. Um amigo de Andrew da época do segundo grau havia recém juntado-se à companhia de dança do famoso coreógrafo Alwin Nikolais, que foi um dos primeiros clientes de Robert Moog - Nikolais adquiriu um dos primeiros Sintetizadores Moog em 1964. O coreógrafo também foi o responsável pelo primeiro contato de Andrew Rudin com o Sintetizador Moog. Pouco tempo depois, quando Rudin soube que o departamento de música da University of Pennsylvania estava começando a montar seu estúdio de música experimental, ele contatou Robert Moog e a U Penn logo teria um dos primeiros grandes estúdios de música eletrônica projetados por Bob Moog. Em 1966, Rudin compôs e realizou sua primeira composição com o Sintetizador Moog, "Il Giuoco", peça para filme e sons sintetizados. 

Em 1967 a Nonesuch Records, gravadora especializada em lançar discos de música clássica a preços populares, interessou-se em ter música eletrônica no seu catálogo. Primeiramente, o selo lançou os álbuns "Silver Apples of the Moon", de Morton Subotnick, "Music for Voices, Instruments & Electronic Sounds", de Kenneth Gaburo, e "The Nonesuch Guide to Electronic Music", da dupla Beaver & Krause. Então, por recomendação de Robert Moog, o selo teve conhecimento dos trabalhos eletrônicos de Andrew Rudin e encomendou uma composição que ocupasse um LP inteiro. Em 1968 "Tragoedia - A Composition in Four Movements for Electronic Music Synthesizer", peça composta entre outubro de 1967 e abril de 1968, foi lançada. "Tragoedia" utilizava instrumentos projetados por Robert Moog e, algum tempo depois, trechos da peça foram utilizados pelo diretor italiano Frederico Fellini no seu filme "Satyricon", de 1969. Ele realizou um segundo trabalho para filme e sons sintetizados, "Paideia", além de continuar a compor para conjuntos e companhias de dança.

Durante os anos 70, Andrew Rudin lecionou música eletrônica, composição e teoria musical na Philadelphia Musical Academy. Em 1972, "The Innocent", uma ópera que misturava música orquestral, sons eletrônicos e vozes teve sua estréia. Andrew Rudin não apenas compôs a música, mas também foi responsável pelos cenários, projeções e figurinos. Em 1975, Alwin Nikolais contratou Andrew Rudin como seu assistente musical, e ele colaborou com Nikolais em várias performances, incluíndo "Styx", "Arporisms", "Guignol" e "Triad". Andrew também compôs peças eletrônicas para o coreógrafo Murray Louis, como "Porcelain Dialogues" e "Ceremony."

Andrew Rudin deu aulas na Juilliard School of Music entre 1981 e 1985, onde ele lecionou em seminários de ópera dos séculos 19 e 20, óperas de Mozart, quartetos de corda dos séculos 19 e 20 e o ciclo dos anéis, de Wagner. Suas peças "Memories of Texas Towns &  Cities", "Two Elegies for Flute and Piano", e "Cortege" (escrita em memória da sua mãe) estrearam nos anos seguintes. Em 1991, Rudin escreveu "Ballade", para sopro e percussão e, no ano seguinte, o balé "Chiaroscuro" estreou na Painted Bride Gallery, na Philadelphia. Na primavera de 2001, um concerto com músicas de Andrew Rudin foi realizado, em comemoração à sua aposentadoria na University of the Arts, na Philadelphia, e incluiu sua peça de música eletrônica "Il Giuoco" e também a recém-composta "Sonata for Violin and Piano". Em 2004, Rudin juntou-se à diretoria da Orchestra 2001, um conjunto da Philadelphia. Atualmente ele é o vice presidente da mesa diretora da orquestra, entre outras atividades. 

Meu primeiro contato com Andrew Rudin foi via Facebook e, na sequencia, por email para realizar a entrevista publicada a seguir. Eu gostaria de agradecer muito o Sr. Rudin, pelo tempo que ele gentilmente cedeu para responder às minhas perguntas. Durante minhas pesquisas para a entrevista, eu tive a oportunidade de conhecer um pouco mais das obras dele, principalmente suas peças eletrônicas e primeiros trabalhos com o Sintetizador Moog. É um prazer e uma honra dividir com os leitores deste blog algumas informações sobre este grande compositor e figura humana tão gentil. E segue aqui a entrevista:


ASTRONAUTA - Andrew Rudin, como foi sua iniciação na música, e quando você percebeu que queria ser músico e compositor?

ANDREW RUDIN - Eu queria muito ter aulas de piano, quando tinha por volta dos cinco anos de idade. Mas não tínhamos piano em casa. Meus pais não estavam nem um pouco conectados à música. Eu acho que no início dos anos 40 a música clássica, especialmente a executada ao piano que eu ouvia pelo rádio, acabou me atraíndo. Minha única exposição ao vivo à esta música foi na Igreja Metodista, que eu frequentava. Nós vivíamos em Newgulf, Texas... uma cidade construída para abrigar os trabalhadores da Texas Gulf Sulphur Company. Havia uma mulher na cidade, que ensinava piano. Felizmente, ela tinha muita prática e era, na verdade, uma musicista bastante sofisticada. Depois de dois anos pedindo aos meus pais para ter aulas de piano, eu escapei um dia depois da aula na escola, e acompanhei um amigo na sua lição de piano. Depois disso, eu meio que me matriculei nas aulas. Então, veio o dilema de contar aos meus pais, ou não, o que eu havia feito. Felizmente deram risadas, depois foram até Houston e compraram um piano para mim.

ASTRONAUTA - Como foi seu primeiro contato com a música eletrônica, e porque você se interessou em compôr peças de música eletrônica?

ANDREW RUDIN - Quando eu me tornei aluno da University of Texas, em 1958, as primeiras informações sobre os estúdios de música experimentais europeus, especialmente em Milão, Frankfurt e Paris, começaram a ser assunto entre os estudantes e compositores interessados. Nós todos estavamos confusos com o que seria aquilo exatamente. Eu acho que as primeiras peças que escutei foram os trabalhos com musique concrète do Pierre Schaeffer. Então, logo em seguida, nós conhecemos os primeiros "estudos" do Stockhausen. E, provavelmente algo desconhecido para nós na época, o Sintetizador RCA - que mais tarde foi incorporado pelas Universidades de Columbia e Princeton -, que estava começando a ser experimentado por Milton Babbitt e outros. Um dos primeiros trabalhos norte-americanos que eu lembro de escutar foi o "Concerto for Tape Recorder and Orchestra", uma colaboração em conjunto do Otto Luening e do Vladimir Ussachevsky. O concerto havia sido gravado pela Louisville Symphony, que estava lançando uma série de gravações por assinatura nos anos 50 e 60, de trabalhos novos. Quando fui embora do Texas para cursar o seminário de graduação do George Rochberg, na University of Pennsylvania, nós fizemos uma viagem com a classe até New York, para assistirmos ao histórico evento que foi o concerto com as primeiras músicas produzidas lá no estúdio da Columbia-Princeton, utilizando o Sintetizador RCA. Eu fiquei intrigado por esta nova tecnologia imediatamente, e fiquei feliz ao saber que a U Penn estava tentando projetar um estúdio de música experimental, mas não sabia exatamente o que colocar no estúdio, além dos gravadores, mesas de mixagem, osciladores, etc.

ASTRONAUTA - Como você conheceu o coreógrafo Alwin Nikolais e quais são as suas lembranças sobre ele?

Alwin Nikolais e Andrew Rudin
ANDREW RUDIN - Quando eu vim para a Philadelphia, para ingressar na Faculdade, eu reencontrei um amigo meu da época do segundo grau no Texas. Ele estava em NY tentando encontrar um lugar para estudar dança. Suas aulas de verão com Hany Holm em Colorado o haviam levado até a Henry Street Settlement School, onde o Nikolais tinha começado a lecionar. Ele também tinha montado sua companhia de dança e realizava apresentações anuais no seu pequeno teatro no Lower East Side, em New York. Eu fui assistir aos ensaios, quando fiu visitar meu amigo, e então me convidaram para assistir às performances, caso eu concordasse em recepcionar o público e entregar os programas das apresentações, o que eu fiquei muito feliz em fazer. Como resultado disso, eu acabei conhecendo a maioria dos dançarinos da companhia, e também o Nikolais e seu parceiro, Murray Louis, que também era coreógrafo e tinha sua própria companhia. Então, eu acho que foi na primavera de 1963 que o Nikolais, me vendo como sempre no lobby de entrada do teatro, me convidou para vir no dia seguinte, depois da matine, para me mostrar o que ele chamava de "Moog-o-phone". Seu técnico de som, James Seawright, tinha visto o protótipo do Moog sendo demonstrado em uma exposição eletrônica, e disse a Nikolais: "é tipo um sintetizador pequeno (referindo-se ao RCA Synth). Cabe em cima de uma mesa. (A recente invenção dos transistores possibilitava isto). Nik, você DEVE ter um." E, na verdade, Nikolais adquiriu aquele protótipo talvez, ou então fez alguns dos primeiros pedidos de compra de um Moog. Tudo era soldado à mão, em placas perfuradas. Circuítos impressos só apareceram alguns anos mais tarde. Eu fiquei bastante intrigado com o que eu estava vendo e ouvindo mas, ao mesmo tempo, como compositor, eu imediatamente ví algumas limitações alí. Principalmente o fato do instrumento ser monofônico, mas também os controles limitados de envelope... pelo que eu me lembro, nestes primeiros projetos, eram apenas três estágios: instantâneo, médio e lento, com pouca diferença entre os estágios, relativamente. Mas então eu retornei aos meus estudos na U Penn e comuniquei o que eu havia visto. Eles então contataram o Robert Moog e o convidaram para vir e prestar uma consultoria. Logo em seguida, um dos primeiros estúdios de grande porte foi encomendado, para ser instalado por Robert Moog no porão da Annenberg School of Communications, no Campus da U Penn. Ocupava o espaço originalmente construído para ser um estúdio de rádio, com janelas de vidros triplos dividindo a sala em duas, como de costume, e com o porão sem janelas e à prova de som. Pelo que me lembro, o Robert Moog chegou em um ônibus Greyhound e trouxe os módulos do sintetizador em caixas de papelão.

Alguns anos mais tarde, depois que eu já havia estabelecido minha reputação como compositor de música com sintetizadores e já havia trabalhado com várias companhias de balé e de dança moderna, o Nikolais me chamou e me convidou para conversar com ele sobre a possibilidade de trabalhar como seu assistente musical. Seu sucesso nas viagens com sua companhia, pelo mundo todo, possibilitavam tempo suficiente para a composição das peças musicais... Ele sempre fez tudo virtualmente, em todos os seus projetos... coreografia, iluminação, figurino, cenários e também as peças de musique concrète... Ele mesmo, em pessoa... Um artista completo. Nos anos seguintes, eu fiz uma peça para Murray Louis, e Nikolais, lutando para montar uma nova apresentação - Styx - resolveu reciclar alguns dos sons desta peça que fiz para o Murray e utilizar nesta nova apresentação, com minha permissão e assistência. Eu fiquei muito emocionado com a oportunidade e, nos dois anos seguintes, eu trabalhei com ele nas partes musicais para as peças Styx, Arporisms, Triad e Guignol. A partitura que mais contou com minha contribuição foi Triad, que foi feita quase integralmente com "sobras" da minha peça anterior, "Il Giuoco", de 1966. Minha relação com Nikolais acabou de forma desapontadora, quando ele se demonstrou relutante em me dar os devidos créditos nas minhas contibuições musicais. Mesmo com praticamente tudo que é escutado em Triad sendo de minha autoria, ele levou os créditos de "composição musical", e só colocou meu nome em letras pequenas na ficha técnica. Mas isto não foi o suficiente para mim e minha relação profissional com ele acabou alí. Era até compreensível, depois de tantos anos sendo "o cara que faz tudo", ele não foi capaz de livrar-se daquela imagem. Foi um pouco como no "Mágico de Oz", quando uma voz nos diz: "não preste atenção no homem atrás da cortina." Eu aprendi muito observando como o Nikolais criava e utilizava as várias mídias, e eu continuo um admirador do seu conhecimento único na forma de misturar som, movimento, luz e imagem. Mas em um nível humano, foi bastante decepcionante. 

ASTRONAUTA - E quanto ao Robert Moog? Como e quando foi seu primeiro contato com ele? Você manteve o contato com o Bob Moog depois dele entregar o Sintetizador Moog no estúdio da Annenberg School of Communications? Quais são suas memórias sobre o Bob Moog?

ANDREW RUDIN - Apesar de ter encontrado com Bob Moog rapidamente, como eu disse antes, através do Nikolais e das negociações com a U Penn, quando ele veio entregar os componentes que encomendamos, eu não o conhecia muito bem até que fui convidado para dar aulas na Philadelphia Musical Academy, em 1965. Nós imediatamente pedimos financimento e fomos contemplados com uma verba, para montarmos nosso próprio estúdio projetado pelo Moog. Então, ele veio várias vezes, por vários anos seguidos, para trazer-nos componentes aperfeiçoados e novidades (principalmente seus sequencers). Ele normalmente vinha de ônibus e normalmente ficava no meu apartamento enquanto estava na cidade. Com excessão de uma vez, quando ele chegou cedo e, temendo ser inconveniente para mim mas também provavelmente atraído pela curiosidade, ele ficou por uma noite em um lugar esquisito, uma cadeia de hoteis de propriedade de um pastor negro, chamado Father Divine. Bob achou divertido, e gostou de toda a experiência, de ter ser café da manhã servido por vários dos "anjos" do Father Divine. Bob sempre foi o cara mais amigável de se ter por perto, e ele me convidou para ir a Trumansburg, NY, em um verão, dizendo que se eu fosse lá e ficasse por alguns dias, ele poderia me mostrar como fazer certos ajustes e manutenções, e assim eu não precisaria esperar por suas visitas. Enquanto eu estava lá, conheci Walter Carlos (não era Wendy ainda), que ainda não era a fabulosa e bem-sucedida criadora de Switched-On Bach. E, algum tempo depois, fiquei sabendo que se eu tivesse ido visita-lo 10 dias mais tarde teria conhecido alguns dos Beatles, que estavam entre os vários que peregrinaram até a fábrica da Moog. Pelo que sei, quando Robert Moog começou a fabricar seus sintetizadores, ele não tinha expectativas de que eles iriam ser adotados por todos os músicos e não só pelos esotéricos de vanguarda, localizados nas universidades. Foi chocante para ele ver a velocidade rápida que eles se tornaram acessórios para praticamente todas as bandas de rock, e até mesmo de astros de show de TV como os Monkees, cujo elenco não era nem mesmo formado por músicos ou cantores. Posso estar enganado, mas eu acredito que ele nem mesmo patenteou seus projetos e que, no fim das contas, foi apenas o fato do seu nome ter se tornado sinônimo de "sintetizador" que lhe trouxe sucesso comercial. O interessante é que seu principal concorrente nos primeiros tempos, Donald Buchla, não alcançou o mesmo status. Eu acho que isso aconteceu porque Bob estava sempre procurando atender os pedidos dos músicos... De todos os tipos... com as ferramentas MUSICAIS que eles precisavam. Uma das coisas que eu melhor lembro é dele dizendo, em resposta a uma questão que eu perguntasse, "Oh... mas isso sería útil?" Sua maior satisfação parecia ser sempre aparecer com alguma coisa que havia feito e que fosse acessível para compôr, sem a necessidade de um conhecimento complexo de engenharia eletrônica. Ele permaneceu acessível a mim ao longo dos anos seguintes, me ajudando a manter o hoje "velho" e complicado sintetizador do Nikolais em ordem, e me ajudando muito na preservação de várias das minhas primeiras peças eletrônicas, tranferindo das fitas magnéticas mofadas para o formato digital. Nós raramente encontramos um ao outro depois dos anos 60 na Philadelphia, mas mantivemos contato por telefone e uma vez ele me escreveu uma carta de recomendação muito lisojeira. Fiquei muito triste com sua partida prematura.

ASTRONAUTA - Em 1966 você compôs e realizou a peça "Il Giuoco". Como foi o processo de realização desta peça? E como foi a recepção dos críticos e do público?

ANDREW RUDIN - Um ano depois da minha graduação, eu fui dar aulas como professor substituto no Philadelphia School System. Mas, como era necessário também alguém para dar aulas em um curso de Orquestração Avançada na Philadelphia Musical Academy, me recomendaram, eu agarrei a oportunidade e determinei que faria daquela a mais excepcional demonstração das minhas capacidades. Isto então me levou, no ano seguinte, a ser contratado para dar aulas de história da música, teoria e, eventualmente, composição. E também me levou a ser efetivado como professor. Ao mesmo tempo haviam festas interessantes... compositores e músicos da música contemporânea na Philadelphia se encontravam, e então o Philadelphia Composers' Forum foi fundado, eventualmente sob a direção do meu colega de sala de aula Joel Thome. De alguma forma, os concertos da primeira temporada foram marcados e me incluiram em um evento na primavera, que também contaria com Vincent Persichetti e George Crumb, que aínda não era muito conhecido e havia recentemente se juntado ao corpo docente da U Penn. Eu me ofereci para apresentar um trabalho meu para dois pianos (eu tocando um dos pianos) e saxofone tenor. Mas, como esta peça era curta, eu impetuosamente ofereci que, já que a U Penn estava montando seu estúdio eletrônico, eu também apresentaria uma peça eletrônica. Esta é a confiança quando se tem 25 anos de idade. Apesar de não saber nada sobre como as coisas eram feitas, eu estava convencido que eu poderia fazer. Bom, a entrega e instalação dos intrumentos pelo Moog atrasou consideravelmente, e também de todo o restante do que era necessário, e o tempo corria. Então, quando finalmente me permitiram acesso ao estúdio, acho que eu tinha somente cerca de 6 semanas até o concerto. Porém, eu felizmente experimentei com os componentes do Moog, encontrei vários sons maravilhosos que gostei muito, e me senti completamente livre das amarras da notação musical. Para mim parecia mais com esculpir, ou com fazer um filme, onde vários trechos são feitos e o filme é o resultado da mixagem e da edição de vários destes trechos. Eu estava completamente livre. E, conforme eu fui completando a composição, comecei a me sentir incomodado com a apresentação. Eu não me sentiria confortável com a idéia de que as pessoas estariam escutando o Quinteto para Piano de Persichetti, as peças para piano e violino de Crumb, ou até mesmo minha própria peça para dois pianos e saxofone, e, em seguida, ficariam sentadas, olhando para um palco vazio enquanto uma fita tocava. Parte do nosso acordo, como compositores estudantes trabalhando na Annenberg School, era que faríamos as trilhas sonoras e partituras musicais para os estudantes de cinema. Então eu decidi que faria meu próprio filme de 16 mm para acompanhar minha composição para sintetizador. Como um som de alta qualidade e a estereofonia eram de extrema importância para mim, e como eu não poderia arcar com as despesas de ter trilhas sonoras óticas direto no filme, e as trilhas magnéticas tinham qualidade superior, os dois elementos foram disparados separadamente, não ficando em perfeita sincronia. Eu só consertei a situação em fevereiro passado, para uma apresentação destes trabalhos na Bowerbird, na Philadelphia, finalmente no formato digital. Esta peça pode ser assistida agora no YouTube.

A reação à mera novidade que era uma peça para sintetizador e filme, francamente, foi boa no evento, mesmo eu sendo um compositor "desconhecido". Eu marco este evento como o final dos meus dias como estudante e o início da minha vida profissional como compositor. Daniel Webster, do Philadelphia Inquirer, escreveu: "Sua opera eletrônica tem apelo imediato. A paleta de sons que ele cultiva é forte e impetuosa. Na sua partitura estão sons que se aproximam de um grupo de trombones, fortes rosnados de dragão e colorações de bronze nas frequências médias, com uma voz soprano inserida. Alguns sons de alta frequência surgem às vezes, mas quando aparecem o fazem com importância. Num certo sentido, o seu estilo é eclético; sua partitura eletrônica às vezes se aproxima dos sopros do estilo pós-romântico."

Logo em seguida à esta estréia, eu fui selecionado pelo ISCM como um dos representantes dos Estados Unidos na 5ª Biennale da cidade de Paris, a qual eu compareci, indo pela primeira vez para a Europa. E o Robert Moog ficou muito impressionado com "Il Giuoco", chegando a utilizar a peça como demonstração do que as máquinas eram capazes de fazer. Em uma entrevista para a Christian Science Monitor, ele disse que "muitas vezes se sentia como o Doutor Frankenstein, por causa de albuns pop como o "Moog Indigo" e o "I'm in the Moog for Love." Quando questionado sobre quais os trabalhos que ele aprovava, ele citou o Switched-On Bach e o meu trabalho.

ASTRONAUTA - "Tragoedia - A Composition in Four Movements for Electronic Synthesizer" foi encomendada pela Nonesuch Records e lançada em LP, em 1968, num período no qual a música eletrônica acadêmica estava se tornando popular para um público que não estava acostumado a ouvir música eletrônica. Como você vê este período, olhando em retrospecto? Como o contato com a Nonesuch Records foi feito e como a peça "Tragoedia" foi criada?

ANDREW RUDIN - A Nonesuch, nos seus primeiros anos, sob a direção criativa de Teresa Stearne, lançava gravações de música clássica a preços não muito caros, mas com muita qualidade e explorando nichos incomuns de repertório. As pessoas podiam e queriam experimentar algo relativamente diferente do repertório básico, porque o custo não era alto. Não tenho certeza se estou dizendo corretamente o ano, mas por volta de 1967 ou algo assim, a Nonesuch lançou um trabalho do Morton Subotnick chamado "Silver Apples of the Moon", uma peça composta e realizada em um Sintetizador Buchla. De forma muito inesperada, aquilo se tornou um grande sucesso para a gravadora, agradando não só os devotos da música de vanguarda mas também a geração da psicodelia, do "turn on, tune in, drop out". Seu ritmo, suas repetições "jazísticas", e seus timbres brilhantes encontraram um público que ninguém sabia que existia. A Nonesuch então encomendou a Paul Beaver e Bernie Krause um LP duplo, chamado "The Nonesuch Guide to Electronic Music". Quando a gravadora perguntou aos dois quem eles conheciam da cena que estava surgindo, eles imediatamente apresentaram a Nonesuch ao Moog, que imediatamente mencionou-me. Ambos, Beaver e Krause, me contataram e até mesmo expressaram interesse em estudar comigo. Inicialmente, o plano era lançarmos "Il Giuoco" em uma coletânea com outros compositores. Mas, com o sucesso de Silver Apples... eles se arriscaram de forma audaciosa e deram a um compositor de apenas 26 anos de idade um LP inteiro para completar com uma nova e original composição, que teria sua "estréia" no seu toca-discos e sistema de som, na sua sala de estar. Naqueles áureos tempos, quando a única verdadeira "obra-prima" do gênero era Poème Électronique, do Edgard Varèse, o meu trabalho, o do Subotnick e de outros era encontrado em três lugares diferentes nas lojas de discos: 1.) Em ordem alfabética, pelos nossos sobrenomes, 2.) em uma pilha separada, rotulada de "Eletrônica", e 3.) em outra pilha ainda, rotulada "Psicodelia". Eu fiquei abismado quando, na ocasião do lançamento de "Tragoedia", recebi uma resenha do Anfred Frankenstein, para a revista Hi Fidelity: "O melhor trabalho em larga escala de música eletrônica que eu já escutei. Nas mãos de Andrew Rudin, o idioma eletrônico finalmente amadurece. Nas suas fases iniciais, o gênero era coberto por milhares de "você-não-pode", que acabou resultando em todas as peças eletrônicas soando iguais a todas as outras peças eletrônicas. Rudin, todavia, emprega todo o espectro da expressão eletrônica, incluíndo sons de afinação fixa. Sua manipulação de todos os elementos - as cores, as texturas, os ritmos, a espacialização sonora, que é muito poderosa como recurso eletrônico - é magistral, e sua peça na verdade faz jus à gradiosidade do tema, que é nada menos do que a essencial tragédia Grega. Parece que este é o primeiro trabalho do compositor a ser lançado em disco. E, muito provavelmente, será o seu último."

Ele estava correto. Demorou cinquenta anos para que finalmente eu tivesse mais gravações lançadas em discos. Disputas contratuais no licenciamento de partes de "Tragoedia" pela Nonesuch, sem minha permissão e se nenhum pagamento, para serem utilizadas na trilha sonora do filme "Satyricon", do Fellini, me tornaram uma persona non grata para eles, e os futuros projetos foram cancelados.

ASTRONAUTA - Além de "Il Giuoco", "Tragoedia" e "Paideia", você tem mais alguma peça de música eletrônica disponível?

ANDREW RUDIN - Existem planos para o lançamento - pela Centaur Records, com quem eu tenho contrato -, de vários dos meus trabalhos eletrônicos desta época, incluindo "Il Giuoco" e "Paideia". A marioia das outras obras, "Shore Song", "View", "Crossing", "Porcelain Dialogues", todas foram feitas como peças para vários coreógrafos e companhias de dança. Este material deve ser lançado dentro de seis meses.

ASTRONAUTA - A música eletrônica se tornou bastante popular a partir dos anos 70. Naturalmente, a popularidade trouxe aspectos bons e aspectos ruins. Como você vê a música eletrônica hoje, comparando com os primeiros tempos, a tecnologia analógica, e os estúdios de fita?

ANDREW RUDIN - Nos anos 70 eu realizei inúmeras peças que incorporavam sons de sintetizadores (gravados), em trabalhos para instrumentos tradicionais, incluíndo o balé "Lumina", para o Pennsylvania Ballett, e uma ópera, "The Innocent", produzida em 1973 na Philadelphia, por Tito Capobianco. Eu também compus peças para voz com acompanhamento de fita, e uma peça curta para clarinete e fita. Depois do meu trabalho com Nikolais, eu fui gradualmente me desvencilhando de ser definido basicamente como um "compositor eletrônico", e minha experiência com a ópera e com o teatro me guiaram gradativamente naquela direção, cada vez mais distante dos trabalhos eletrônicos. Eu também achava que as escolas estavam felizes em conseguir verbas para montar seus estúdios, mas raramente tinham interesse em uma manutenção contínua e em renovar as tecnologias necessárias, e isto fazia o trabalho ficar cada vez menos interessante. Eu também passei a sentir que, com o advento dos computadores e com a presença incessante de sons sintetizados nas bandas de rock, me sentia atraído cada vez menos e menos para o que estava sendo criado. E muito do que havia sido uma verdadeira revolução nos anos 60 e 70, tinha sido absorvido, e já estava até mesmo sendo extensamente imitado e suplantado pelos meios tradicionais como, por exemplo, nos trabalhos de Penderecki e Ligeti, entre outros. Resumindo, eu acho que a maioria das coisas que eu ouço hoje em dia, que incorporam tecnologias maiores e mais sofisticadas, acho elas esteticamente menos atraentes. Resumindo, eu não trabalho com eletrônica faz muito tempo, e sinto que eu fiz o que eu queria fazer em um certo período da minha vida, e agora eu estou envolvido com outras atividades, apesar de que eu ainda tenho um orgulho do papel que eu desempenhei, e continuo considerando aquelas peças como ítens valiosos do meu catálogo.

ASTRONAUTA - Quais são seus projetos mais recentes e planos para o futuro?

ANDREW RUDIN - Meu trabalho mais recente é "Dreaming at the Wheel", um ciclo de quatro canções para barítono, baseadas em poemas de Charles Behlen, um poeta texano. A peça foi composta para quase o mesmo conjunto que Ravel utilizou na sua notável "Trois Chansons de Stephane Mallarmé", além de baixo e percussão. A estréia foi recentemente, em Dallas.

Na década entre 1975 e 1985, quando ainda trabalhava com sintetizadores, eu também compus uma ópera em três atos, tradicional, baseada na obra "As Três Irmãs", de Anton Chekov. esta peça permanece inédita, mas eu espero que ela encontre seu caminho para o palco. 

Recentemente, nos últimos anos, houveram algumas estréias e gravações dos meus concertos para Violino, Viola e Piano, bem como sonatas para Piano, Violino, Viola, Cello... todas disponíveis através da Centaur Records

Em breve eu viajo pela primeira vez para Moscow, onde minha "Celebrations", para dois pianos e percussão, será apresentada. Meu projeto mais ambicioso é uma ópera de câmara, para quatro cantores e um conjunto de doze intrumentos, baseada na novela "A Sinfonia Pastoral", de Andre Gide.

ASTRONAUTA - Andrew Rudin, muito obrigado pelo tempo que você dedicou à esta entrevista. Eu espero que eu possa encontrar o senhor pessoalmente algum dia! Desejo tudo de bom para você!

ANDREW RUDIN - E, sim... Eu gostaria muito se pudessemos nos encontrar. Eu fico muito intrigado com o seu interesse, e o de muitos outros jovens, que continuam fascinados pela música eletrônica e, especialmente pelo papel que alguns de nós desempenhamos nos primórdios do seu desenvolvimento. 

Alguém recentemente escutou "Il Giuoco" e me escreveu para expressar que ele considerava esta peça muito superior à "Silver Apples" do Subotnick, e apontou que ela inclusive foi feita anteriormente à peça do Subotnick, apesar de que, naturalmente, não tivesse a circulação e publicidade que "Silver Apples" teve. Eu nunca havia pensado nisto. 

Muito obrigado pelo seu interesse. Eu espero que eu não tenha elaborado demais as respostas para suas questões. Com certeza, sinta-se livre para editar da forma que você desejar. 

E nos encontraremos sim, algum dia. Com certeza me contate sempre que eu puder ser útil para você. 

Tudo de bom para você -

Andrew Rudin

Visite o site de Andrew Rudin: www.composerrudin.com


Interview with Andrew Rudin

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Charles Andrew Rudin was born in Newgulf, Texas, on April 10, 1939. He became interested in music early in his childhood, and began to take piano lesson when he was 7-year-old, with Lila Crow, the only piano teacher in Newgulf. She also took the young student to attend operas in Houston, Texas. Some time later Andrew Rudin also studied trombone and cello, and began to compose his own pieces at age 15.

In 1957, Rudin entered the University of Texas, in Austin. Also at that time, he became aware of the works by european experimental composers, including Pierre Schaeffer's musique concrète, Karlheinz Stockhausen's elektonische musik, and Vladimir Ussachevsky and Otto Luening's tape music. In early '60s, he left the University of Texas and moved to Philadelphia to attend the University of Pennsylvania, where he studied with composers George Rochberg, Karlheinx Stockhausen, Ralph Shapey, and Hugo Weisgall. After his graduation, Andrew joined the faculty of The Philadelphia Musical Academy. A friend of Andrew's from high school had just joined the dance company of the famous choreographer Alwin Nikolais, who was one of the very first customers of Robert Moog - Nikolais had bought one of the first Moog Synthesizers in 1964. The choreographer was also responsible for Andrew Rudin's very first contact with the Moog Synthesizer. When Rudin became aware that the University of Pennsylvania's music department was beginning to set their studio for experimental music, he contacted Robert Moog and U Penn soon had the first large-scale electronic music studio designed by Bob Moog. In 1966, Rudin composed and realized his first composition with the Moog Synthesizer, "Il Giuoco," a piece for film and synthesized sounds.

In 1967 Nonesuch Records, a record company specialized in releasing inexpensive classical music records, became interested in having electronic music in their catalogue. First, they released Morton Subotnick's "Silver Apples of the Moon," Kenneth Gaburo's "Music For Voices, Instruments & Electronic Sounds," and  Beaver & Krause's "The Nonesuch Guide to Electronic Music," and then, via a recommendation from Robert Moog, Nonesuch became aware of Andrew Rudin's electronic works and commissioned a full-LP composition. In 1968 "Tragoedia - A Composition in Four Movements for Electronic Music Synthesizer," a piece composed between October 1967 and April 1968 was released, using instruments designed by Robert Moog. Some excerpts from "Tragoedia" were used by Italian director Frederico Fellini in his 1969 film "Satyricon." Andrew Rudin realized a second work for film and synthesized sounds, "Paideia," and continued to compose for ensembles and dance companies.

During the seventies, Andrew Rudin taught electronic music, composition, and music theory at The Philadelphia Musical Academy. In 1972 "The Innocent", an opera that blended orchestral music, electronic sounds, and voices was premiered. Andrew Rudin not only composed the score, but also was the responsible for the scenery, projections, and costumes. In 1975, Alwin Nikolais hired Andrew Rudin as his music assistant, and he collaborated with Nikolais in several performances, including "Styx,""Arporisms,""Guignol," and "Triad." Andrew also composed for the choreographer Murray Louis the electronic pieces "Porcelain Dialogues" and "Ceremony."

Andrew Rudin joined the graduate faculty of The Juilliard School of Music from 1981 to 1985, where he taught seminars in Opera of the 19th and 20th Century, Operas of Mozart, String Quartets of the 19th and 20th Century, and Wagner's "Ring" cycle. His pieces "Memories of Texas Towns & Cities,""Two Elegies for Flute and Piano," and "Cortege" (written in memory of his mother) were premiered. In 1991 "Ballade" for horn and percussion was written, and in the following year "Chiaroscuro" was premiered as a dance work at Philadelphia's Painted Bride Gallery. In the Spring of 2001, a concert of Andrew Rudin's music was presented in celebration of his retirement from The University of the Arts, Philadelphia, and included his electronic composition "Il Giuoco" and also the newly composed "Sonata for Violin and Piano." In 2004, Rudin joined the board of directors of Orchestra 2001, an ensemble from Philadelphia. He is currently the Orchestra's board of directors vice president, among other activities.

My first contact with Andrew Rudin was via Facebook, and then via email to do the following interview. I'd like to thank Mr. Rudin so much for the time he kindly spent to answer the questions. During my research for this interview I became a little bit more aware of his works (mainly the electronic pieces and early works with the Moog Synthesizer), and it's a pleasure and honor to share some information about this great composer and very kind human being with the readers of this blog. And here's the interview:


ASTRONAUTA - Andrew Rudin, how did you start in music? And when did you realize that you would be a composer and musician?

ANDREW RUDIN - I was eager to take piano lessons from about age 5. But our house had no piano. My parents were not in any way connected to music. I believe in the early 1940's, the Classical music, especially piano playing, that I heard on the radio attracted me. The only live exposure to such music was played in the Methodist Church which I attended. We lived in Newgulf, Texas... a town constructed to house the workers of the Texas Gulf Sulphur Company. There was one woman in town who taught piano. Fortunately, she was well trained and was actually a rather sophisticated musician. After begging my parents for two years for lessons, I transgressed one day after school and accompanied a friend to her piano lesson. Afterwards, I more or less enrolled myself for lessons. Then... I had the dilemma of telling my parents what I had done. Fortunately, they laughed, went to Houston, and bought me a piano.

ASTRONAUTA - How was your first contact with electronic music and why did you become interested in composing electronic pieces?

ANDREW RUDIN - When I became a student at University of Texas in 1958, the first information about the European Experimental Music Studios, particularly in Milan, Frankfurt, and Paris began to be discussed by interested composers and students. We were all puzzled by what exactly this was. I think the earliest pieces I heard were of musique concrète works by Pierre Schaeffer. Then we begin to be aware around that time of Stockhausen's early "Studien". And probably unknown to us then, the RCA Synthesizer, which was later appropriated by Columbia and Princeton Universities, was beginning to be experimented by Milton Babbitt and others. One of the earliest American works I recall hearing was "Concerto for Tape Recorder and Orchestra", a joint collaboration by Otto Luening and Vladimir Ussachevsky. It was recorded by the Louisville Symphony, which put out a subscription series of recordings in the 50's and 60's of new works. When I left Texas to enroll in the graduate seminar of George Rochberg at The University of Pennsylvania, we made the journey as a class into New York City to attend the historic event that was the concert of music first produced there in the Columbia/Princeton Studio on the RCA Synthesizer. I was intrigued by this new medium immediately, and was happily anticipating that U Penn was trying to set up an experimental music studio there, but didn't really know, beyond tape recorders, mixing boards, oscillators, etc. what to put in it.

ASTRONAUTA - How did you meet the choreographer Alwin Nikolais, and what are your memories about him?

Alwin Nikolais and Andrew Rudin
ANDREW RUDIN - When I came to Philadelphia to attend Graduate School, I reconnected with a friend from my high-school days in Texas, who was in NY trying to find training as a dancer. His summer classes with Hany Holm out in Colorado had led him to the Henry Street Settlement School where Nikolais had become a teacher and had built his dance company and presented yearly shows in their small theatre on NY's Lower East Side. I came over to see rehearsals, visit my friend, and was allowed to see the performances if I agreed to hand out programs and usher, which I was thrilled to do. As a result, I came to know most of the dancers in the company and Nikolais and his partner, Murray Louis, also a choreographer with his own company. It was I believe in Spring 1963 that Nikolais, seeing me as usual working in the lobby of the theatre in vited me to come the next day after the matinee to show me what he called "The Moog-o-phone". His sound technician, James Seawright, had seen Moog's prototype demonstrated in an electronics show and told Nikolais, "it's like a little Synthesizer (meaning the RCA Synth). It sits on a table. (the recent invention of transistors had made this possible). Nik, you should HAVE this."And, indeed Nikolais did purchase either that very prototype or very possible made the first order from Moog. Everything was hand-soldered on peg boards. Printed circuits came several years later. I was greatly intrigued by what I saw and heard, but also immediately saw certain things that to me, as a composer, seemed limitations. Mainly the monophonic nature of the instrument, and the very limited control over envelope generation... being as I remember in the earliest design only three stages: Instant, med. and slow, with relatively little difference between these stages. But I returned to my studies at U Penn and reported what I'd seen and they contacted Moog and invited him for a consultation. Immediately thereafter one of Moog's first large-scale studios was commissioned for instalation in the basement of the Annenberg School of Communications on the Penn Campus. It occupied a space intended as a radio broadcast studio, with triple-paned glass separating two rooms in typical fashion, and in the basement, windowless and sound-proof. My recollection is that Moog came on a Greyhound bus, and brought synthesizer components in a cardboard box.

Quite a number of years later, after I'd established my reputation as a composer of synthesized music, and had worked with a number of modern dance and ballet companies, Nikolais called me one day and asked me to come and talk to him about working as his music assistant. His success in touring with his company throughout the world made giving adequate time to the composition of the scores... He had always done virtually the entire enterprise himself... choreography, lighting, costumes, props, and the musique concrète scores... Himself... the true gesamtkunstwerk. In the intervening years, I had made a score for Murray Louis, and Nikolais, struggling then to mount a new show, Styx, wanted to recycle some of the sounds from Murray's score into this new work, with my permission and assistance. I was thrilled at the opportunity, and for the next two years worked with him on the scores for Styx, Arporisms, Triad, and Guignol. The score to which I made the greatest contribution was Triad, which was made almost entirely from "out-takes" of my early Il Giuoco from 1966. My relationship with Nikolais ended disappointingly when he became reluctant to appropriately credit me for my musican contributions. Even though almost everything one heard in Triad was created by me, he still took credit for the "sounds scores" and only acknowledged me in the fine-print of the various credits. This was not satisfactory for me and I severed my working relationship with him. It was understandable, after all those years of being "the guy who did it all", he was unable to relinguish that image. It was a bit like the scene in The Wizard of Oz, where a voice tells us, "Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain." I learned a great deal from observing how Nikolais created and united the various media, and I remain a fan of his unique understanding of blending sound, movement, light, and image. But it was disappointing on an entirely human level.

ASTRONAUTA - And how about Robert Moog? How and when was your first contact with him? Did you keep in contact with Bob Moog after he delivered the Moog Synthesizer at Annenberg School of Communications' studio? And what are your memories about Bob Moog?

ANDREW RUDIN - Though I met Moog briefly, as noted above, through Nikolais and the dealings at U Penn, when he came to deliver the components we'd ordered, I didn't really get to know him well until I was appointed to the faculty of the Philadelphia Musical Academy in 1965. We immediately wrote grants and received funding to set up our own Moog-designed studio, and he came a numerous times over several years to bring us improvements, new components (most significantly his sequencers). He usually came on the bus, and usually stayed at my apartment while there. Except once, when he arrived early and, fearing to inconvenience me, and probably also being curious, he stayed a night at one of the odd enterprises, a chain of hotels run by a black minister, Father Divine. Bob found the whole experience, and being served his breakfast by various of Father Divine's "angels", to be amusing and to his liking. Bob was always a most amiable guy to be around, and he invited me up to Trumansburg, NY one summer, saying that if I could come up for a few days, he could show me how to make certain maintenance adjustments so I'd not have to wait for his visits. While there I met Walter Carlos (not yet Wendy), not yet the fabulously successful creator of Switched-On Bach. And some time later, I learned that had I made my visit 10 days later, I'd have gotten to meet a couple of The Beatles, who were among the many who made the pilgrimage to Moog's workshop. It is my understanding that when Moog began manufacturing his synths, he had no expectation that they would be picked up by any musicians other than the rather esoteric avant-garde then ensconced in the Universities. It was startling to him how quickly they became fixtures in virtually every rock band, and even the TV show, The Monkees, whose cast really were not even musicians or singers. It might be wrong but I believe that he had not even patented his designs, and that merely the fact that his name became synonymous with "synthesizer" was what ultimately made him commercially successful. It's interesting that his chief competition in those early days, Donald Buchla, was NOT taken up in the same way. I think this was because Bob was always seeking to provide musicians... Of all sorts... with the MUSICAL tools they needed. The thing I most recall him saying in response to a question I might ask, was... "Oh... would that be useful?" His greatest satisfaction seemed always to come from having made something compositionally accessible without complex knowledge of the electronic engineering involved. He remained accessible to me throughout the years that followed, helping me get Nikolais' now "ancient" and limping synthesizer in good order, and steering me to the preservation of many of my earliest electronic works from the moldering magnetic tapes to digital format. We rarely saw each other beyond the 60's in Philadelphia, but were in touch by phone and he once wrote me the most flattering letter of recommendation. I was greatly saddened by his untimely exit.

ASTRONAUTA - In 1966 you composed and realized "Il Giuoco," how was the process to realize that piece? And how was the reception of critics and audience to the piece?

ANDREW RUDIN - A year out of Graduate school, I spent teaching instrumental music as a substitute in the Philadelphia School System. But, someone was needed to teach one course, Advanced Orchestration, at The Philadelphia Musical Academy, and I was recommended and jumped at the opportunity and determined to make it the most outstanding demonstration of my capabilities. This then led the next year to my hiring to teach music history and theory and eventually composition there and to be taken full-time onto their faculty. At the same time, all the interested parties... composers and performers... in contemporary music in Philadelphia held several meetings and The Philadelphia Composers' Forum was establish, eventually under the directorship of my student colleague, Joel Thome. Somehow, the first season's concerts were determined and I was to be included on a spring offering featuring Vincent Persichetti, and George Crumb, not yet very well known, and having just joined the faculty at U Penn. I offered that I would present a work of mine for two pianos (playing one myself) and Tenor Saxophone. But as it was short, I brashly offered that, since Penn was setting its electronic studio, I'd have an electronic work as well. Such is the confidence of being 25 years old. Though I knew nothing whatever about how such things were made, I was convinced I could do it. Well, delivery of installation of Moog's instruments, and all the rest that was needed was delayed considerably, and time was running out, so that by the time I was granted access to the studio I think there was only about 6 weeks until the concert. However, I happily experimented with Moog's components, found many wonderful sounds that I liked, and felt completely freed of the constrains of notation. It seemed to me much more like sculpting. Or the making of a film, where many takes are made and the film results from the mixing and editing of these many takes. It was entirely liberating. And, as I began to assemble the composition, I began to be uneasy about its presentation. I could not be comfortable with the idea that people would be hearing Persichetti's Piano Quintet, Crumb's Violin and Piano pieces, or even my own 2-piano/saxophone work, and then sit and look at an empty stage as a tape played. Part of our agreement as student composers working in the Annenberg School was that we'd make sound-tracks and musical scores for student film-makers. And so, I decided that I would make my own 16mm film to accompany my synthesized composition. Since it was the high quality of the sound and the stereophony that was of primary importance to me, and since I could not afford the expense of optical sound tracks affixed to the film, much less the superior quality of magnetic tracks, the two elements were run as separate elements, never being utterly precise in their synchronization. I only remedied this situation last February for presentation of these works by Bowerbird in Philadelphia, in, at last, digital format, where they can be seen now also on YouTube.

The reaction of the mere novelty of the synthesizer and film piece, frankly walked away with the evening, even though I was the "unknown" composer. I mark that event as the end of my student days and the beginning of my professional life as a composer. The Philadelphia Inquirer's Daniel Webster wrote: "His electronic opera had an immediate appeal. The palette of sound he has cultivated is brash and strong. In his score are sounds which approach that of a corps of trombones, assertive dragon growls and bronzy middle range colors and an interpolated soprano voice. Few of the high frequency sounds intruded but when they did they had added importance. In a sense, his style is eclectic; his electronic scores sometimes approached a tonal brass style of the post-romantics."

Shortly after this premiere, I was selected by the ISCM as one of the US representatives to the 5th Biennale of the City of Paris, which I attended, taking me for the first time to Europe. And Moog was greatly impressed with Il Giuoco, and used it as a demonstration piece as to what machines were capable of. In an interview for the Christian Science Monitor, he said that he "often felt like Doktor Frankenstein, what with pop albums with the likes of "Moog Indigo" and "I'm in the Moog for Love." When asked what works he did approve of, he cited Switched-On Bach and my work.

ASTRONAUTA - "Tragoedia - A Composition in Four Movements for Electronic Synthesizer" was commissioned by Nonesuch Records and released in LP, in 1968. It was a period in which academic electronic music was becoming popular to audiences that weren't accustomed to listen to electronic music. How do you see that period, looking in retrospect? How the contact with Nonesuch Records was made, and how "Tragoedia" was created?

ANDREW RUDIN - Nonesuch, in those early days, under the very creative directorship of Teresa Stearne, provided inexpensive classical music recordings of very high quality and exploring many unusual niches of the repertoire. People were willing to take a chance on something a bit out of the standard repertoire, because it didn't cost much. I'm not sure I've got the exact year correct, but somewhere around 1967 or so, Nonesuch released a work by Morton Subotnick, entitled "Silver Apples of the Moon", a composition made on a Buchla Synthesizer. Quite unexpectedly, it became a huge hit for them, appealing to avant garde electronic music devotees but also to the "turn on, tune in, drop out" psychedelic generation. It's driving, jazzy ostinati, and bright timbres found an audience no one knew existed. Nonesuch then commissioned a two-LP set called, "The Nonesuch Guide to Electronic Music" by Paul Beaver and Bernie Krause. When they queried about what they knew of this developing scene, they immediately steered Nonesuch to Moog, who immediately mentioned me. Both Beaver and Krause contacted me and even expressed interest in studying with me. Initially the plan was to release Il Giuoco on a compilation with other composers. But with the success of Silver Apples... they took a very daring risk and gave a 26-year-old composer an entire LP to fill with a new and original composition, to be "premiered" as it were on your turntable and sound-system in your living room. In those heady days, when the only true "masterwork" in the genre was Edgard Varèse's Poéme Electronique, my work and Subotnick's and others was to be found in three locations in a record store: 1.) Filed alphabetically under our last name, 2.) in a separate bin labeled "Electronic", and 3.) in still another bin labeled "Psychedelic". I was astonished upon the release of Tragoedia to receive the following review from Alfred Frankenstein, in the magazine Hi Fidelity: "The best large-scale electronic work I have ever heard. In Andrew Rudin's hands the electronic idiom finally comes of age. In its early phases it was hedged about with a million arbitrary thou-shalt-nots, with the result that every electronic piece sounded like every other electronic piece. Rudin, however employs the entire spectrum of electronic expression, including sounds of fixed pitch. His handling of it all - the colors, the textures, the rhythms, the sonorous space which is so powerful an electronic resource - is masterly, and his piece actually does equal the grandeur of his theme, which is nothing less than the essence of Greek tragedy. This seems to be the composer's first work to appear on records. It is most unlikely to be his last."

He was correct. Fifty years later, I finally had more works on records. Contractual disputes in the licensing portions of Tragoedia by Nonesuch, without my permission, and without payment, for use in the sound-track of the film, Fellini: Satyricon, made me persona non grata with them and future projects were scuttled.

ASTRONAUTA - Besides "Il Giuoco,""Tragoedia," and "Paideia," do you have more electronic music compositions available? And "Paideia," how it was created?

ANDREW RUDIN - There are plans to release, on Centaur Records, with whom I have a contract, many of my early electronic works, including Il Giuoco and Paideia. Most of the other scores, Shore Song, View, Crossing, Porcelain Dialogues, were made as scores for various choreographers and dance companies. It should be released within the next 6 months.

ASTRONAUTA - Electronic music became very popular from the seventies on. Of course, the popularity brought good aspects and also bad aspects. How do you see today's electronic music, comparing to the early days, analog technology, and tape studios?

ANDREW RUDIN - In the 1970's, I did a number of works that incorporated synthesized (taped) sounds into works with traditional instruments: These included the ballet, Lumina, for the Pennsylvania Ballett, and the opera The Innocent, produced in 1973 in Philadelphia by Tito Capobianco. I also made pieces for voice with tape accompaniment, and a short work for Clarinet and tape. After my work with Nikolais, I became increasingly less willing to be defined primarily as an "electronic composer", and my experience with opera and theatre drew me increasingly in that direction and away from working electronically. I also found that schools, while happy to generate grants to found such studios, rarely are interested in the continual maintenance and upgrading that technology requires and this made me less and less interested in work there. I also began to feel that with the advent of computers, and the ubiquity of synthesized sounds in Rock bands, that I was less and less attracted to what was being created. And much of what had been truly a revolution in the 60's and early 70's how now been absorbed and even to an extent imitated and supplanted by the means of traditional means, for instance in the works of Penderecki and Ligeti, among others. In short, I find most of what I hear these days incorporating the vastly more sophisticated technology to be aesthetically less engaging. In short, I no longer work with electronics, feeling that I did what I wanted to do in that period of my life, and I'm now involved in other pursuits, though I'm still proud of the role I played, continue to regard those early pieces as worthy items in my catalogue.

ASTRONAUTA - What are your most recent projects, and plans to the future?

ANDREW RUDIN - My most recent work is Dreaming at the Wheel, a cycle of four songs for Baritone, on poems by Texan poet, Charles Behlen. It's scored for almost the same ensemble as Ravel's remarkable, Trois Chansons de Stephane Mallarmé, plus double-bass and percussion. It was recently premiered in Dallas.

In the decade 1975-1985, as I continued to work with synthesizers, I also composed a three act opera for traditional forces, based on Anton Chekhov's Three Sisters. It remains unproduced, but I hope to see it eventually find its way to the stage.

Recent years have seen the premiere and recording of my concertos for Violin, Viola, and Piano, as well as sonatas for piano, violin, viola, cello... all available on Centaur Records.

I'm about to travel for the first time to Moscow, where my Celebrations for 2 pianos and percussion will be performed. My most ambitious upcoming project is a chamber opera for 4 singers and an ensemble of 12 instruments based on Andre Gide's novella, The Pastoral Symphony.

ASTRONAUTA - Andrew Rudin, thank you so much for your time to answer this interview. I hope I can meet you in person someday! All the best to you!

ANDREW RUDIN - And, yes... I'd like very much if we might meet. I'm greatly intrigued that you and many like you in the younger generation continue to be fascinated by electronic music, and most especially the role that some of us played in its early development. 

Someone who recently listened to Il Giuoco, wrote to express to me that he regarded it as vastly superior to Subotnick's Silver Apples, and pointed out to me that it preceded in its date Subotnick's work, though of course did not have the circulation publicity Silver Apples had. I'd never put that together.

Thank you so much for your interest. I hope that I've not elaborated too much in responding to your questions. Certainly feel free to edit whatever degree seems desirable to you.

And let's do try to make a point to meet one day. Certainly contact me at any time I can be of use to you.

All the best -

Andrew Rudin

Andrew Rudin's website: www.composerrudin.com


Interview with John Dinwiddie

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John Dinwiddie, with a Shure directional mike testing the Winters circuit, 1967.
Photo: David Freund, SOURCE Magazine, Issue 3.
Think about a few years ago, and all things that changed in your life in a short period of time. Now think specifically about the improvements in human communication in the same period. Think about how easily it became to contact people all around the world, to find people with the same interests, on the same subjects, sharing the same cultural references, only geographically apart from each other. Of course the advent of the communication facilities, specifically via internet, brought very good things, and also bad things. But no one can deny that all the bad things that came along with the "modern days in communications" worth the price. It does for me, and it does for my research on electronic/experimental music and its pioneers and "eyewitnesses."

One of these days I was researching on the independent American magazine dedicated to the avant-garde music and arts "Source," and one name was recurrent in some texts, John Dinwiddie. I recognized the name, but didn't know where from. Then in less than two seconds, a light came to me - not a real light, only in my brain and thoughts... I hope so - and I finally got the answer: that was the same person that I had recently added as a friend on Facebook, who liked to comment on my posts, always with long stories. Long and good stories, I shall mention here. Not a single post of mine, specially on avant-garde music and composers, without a good story from John Dinwiddie. So, I decided it would be nice to interview the man someday, and went on and on thru the internet seas, but unfortunately I didn't find much more than a very good link to an interview of John's to Charles Amirkhanian in 1973, via Other Minds' official website.

I told John that I was willing to interview him, but wasn't able to find texts enough about him and, - not a surprise after my contact with him got further on, and I saw that the man, besides having a wide knowledge and a very good memory, has an enormous heart and patience to write long and good texts - I got a long text from him, a extended biography, to make my research and formulate the questions to the interview. And that was my main source to this interview that you can read below.

I'm very grateful to John Dinwiddie, who spent days and nights remembering his history, and writing that to send me, via email. Thank you so much, John! And thank you Gerda, John's wife, who not only encouraged the man to write, but also - I think so - must be responsible for part of this memories that John Dinwiddie share with us, here. And now, let's get into a long story, that worth every line!

John Dinwiddie and his wife Gerda, Germany, 2011.
JOHN DINWIDDIE - Before I begin... definition, disclaimer, decafe

In having been honored, certainly considered more important than I am, to be included in Fabricio's research interviews, I am coming out of hiding at age 75 to revisit a world that I left 41 years ago immediately after John Adams conducted my last public piece, which he had also kindly commissioned, Lattices, a group of sequenced improvisational formats based on chromatic scales.

People who knew me may read my answers, some long, and wonder why so small a frog croak so loud. My life as a composer lasted 15 years and stopped abruptly when I was 34. I am indeed a small frog, and I don't think that anyone should be interested in me in that capacity; for 2/3 of that time I was a student composer, a low rank indeed. But I was a witness to events that I think were keys to the understanding of a complex time that was decadent as the term was used by Barzun, simply the delta land of a thousand plus year era. Some saw it as a new beginning, but the society decided in a ruthless and cowardly way that it was not to be such. Perhaps it contained its own seeds of destruction, and here I voice some of my thoughts on that part.

It is gone with the wind, leaving monastic composers to keep the faith much as monks kept literacy alive in the dark ages. We will have to save the world before we can hope for much more.

On with my little loud frog show and tell...

Have you given up music yet? Zen challenge.

Have you given up YOUR music yet? Pran Nath's challenge.

Starting with a story about Pandit Pran Nath.

It may have been 1973. I was shortly to abandon my strange odyssey as a composer which started more or less when I was 20 in 1960 in Luebeck, Germany. By now I had taken in what John Cage and David Tudor had taught me to so extreme a degree that I was all but convinced that whatever a composer was, I could no longer be one. But I was still searching, and I had very lately in the game taken LSD. That experience - and in 1972 may have been one of the last people in Berkeley to have had it - convinced me that I had experienced sound as a "living thing." I had also recently heard Pran Nath sing at Mills College in a presentation attended by a small group that included Henri Pousseur dressed to the 10s in a Tom Wolfe suit. Pran Nath sat on a prayer rug in the center of an attractive dormitory common room and chanted as if he were alone. His chanting seemed to make Pousseur nervous. He distractedly clawed at the door jamb next to him. It was what I expected, and it was completely over my head. I had heard that Pran Nath had once sung for four years straight a hymn to Krishna, stopping only for necessary natural functions. I already knew that Terry Riley and La Monte Young had left the American avant garde and were studying with him.

I was looking at the bulletin board in the UCB Student Union on Bancroft. There was a 3X5 card advertising singing lessons. The address was nearby in the Rockridge District of Oakland. The card had been posted by Pran Nath.

So I made the appointment and was ushered into a modest craftsman era bungalow on a pleasant street near the College of Arts and Crafts. I was greated by a human lion. He was cordial and to the point. Seated inside next to tambouras that they seemed to be tuning were to two lovely young western ladies.

We sat down and faced each other across a cocktail table. It was war from the start. I was in my early 30s, now a "certified contrapuntalist,"a past student of world famous musicians. I was not about to play the role of apprentice in search of a "master." But that is exactly what Pran Nath wanted from me, and he soon scolded me for what to him was arrogance. His scolding went something like this: "When I wanted to learn music, I followed my teacher around the town for days and days begging him to take me, and he finally did. But first he would push me away and push me away. And I kept coming back..."

I felt guilty and annoyed. The cultural gulf was too large from the start. But I wanted our interview to be happier than this. What could I say that could rescue the situation? I said this: "look, I have a problem. I think I have experienced sound and a living thing."

Pran Nath transformed instantly. He broke into a broad smile, enthused something like this: "Oh, yes!! Sound IS a living thing! It create the universe, it is baby's cry, everything that is not corrupt is song! I will take you as a student, but I warn you that if you follow me you will have to leave all that you think you know about music behind you."

I knew that I could not do that and told him so with some regret, with a real sense that the path of music went much further than I was willing to go. I had discovered a limit, wondered what lay beyond, knowing that the price of admission too high for me. He appreciated my honesty. We parted friends.

I learned then or later that the two girls were not tuning their instruments to some standard as do western instruments. They were tuning the instruments to themselves.

Now how am I going to answer these questions?

I will try to let the person speak who was there, and more than a little of what I say may strike a reader as naïve, but that was the camera lens that took the pictures, me from age 20 to 34.

Life in our society is an opera. Or a musical. Or a chain gang singing. Circumstance and choice determine the music, and our lives are the plots, but there is a music track somewhere much of the time, for some all of the time. We rue the fact that it is in public places wether we like it or not, that a lot of what we hear amounts to crowd control. And there is never silence. Of course nature isn't silence, but I am talking about the price in noise that we pay for civilization. High in the wilderness, an occasional helicopter will disturb. The Sierra Nevada's spectacular Desolation Valley is directly under a commercial airlines flight path to San Francisco.

Recent media dazes into some zombie cakewalk our gear drenched youth. It isolates them and deposits them into a virtual world, a pernicious cocoon. Science fiction writers in the mid 20th century wrote about this. Now it is no longer science fiction. I looked yesterday at high definition TV at Best Buy. Thank God I can't afford such gear. I might otherwise never go outside again. Now we watch gorgeous shots of nature inside that will soon be outside. Is our future to be like that engineered death scene in Soylent Green? Do we see flowers soon that are not outside at all? And imbedded in this crisis, am I to speculate on the future of new music here? I'll certainly try to do that, but...

This is now a century old story at least. Music was not needed with innovation of talkie movies. But the band played on and still does.

If asked how originally bonded to music, Fabricio's first questions to me here, I am really being asked to analyze social roots of my own opera, and such roots vary endlessly. Robert Ashley once told a group of us that after he played his M. A. piano recital, he quit and went on to now world famous other things. He came to recognize that in his childhood he had bonded to boogie woogie and blues. He did not have European classical music in his DNA.

I did, I am not a snob who considers that bonding a virtue. It is fate, nothing else. Classical music is also class music, and in our society its pretentious have been divisive, in the end self destructive, since classical music has now hit a log jam of established repertory which throttles innovation. It is now what Larry Austin called it 50 years ago, a museum culture. It is the opera of the rich and its imitators in the middle class. Veblen corrosively analyzed that pairing almost a century ago. I do not burn incense at the altar of classical music. I don't much like the bourgeois culture that is bundled with it. But it is what I bonded to first, so its spirit is the core of my musical experience. That informs everything that I now write, especially so the first quite long answer.

Now to Fabricio's e-mail interview questions.

"John Cage preparing to take his turn in a 15 hour performance of Satie's Vexations that bracketed his multi concert environment MEWANTEMOOSEICDAY at U.C. Davis in 1969. He asked me to repost on the day, and that report, which may be found with the name as the title of that report in SOURCE, Issue No. 7, and in the recent U.C. Press anthology of Source edited by Larry Austin and Douglas Kahn, photo by Richard Friedman." John Dinwiddie.
ASTRONAUTA - Hi John Dinwiddie! To start from the beginning, what was the relationship with music and arts in your home, when you was a child? And which memories do you have about the earliest times that music and arts began to be interesting for you? Which musical instrument first caught your attention, and what did you like to listen (and play) at home in your childhood and teenage days?

JOHN DINWIDDIE - I was born into a soon to decline Berkeley California upper middle class family in 1940. We lived in a home on Stonewall Road in the Berkeley Hills behind the Claremont Hotel that was designed by my father, a fast rising Bay Area architect, John Ekin Dinwiddie, once a student of Eliel Saarinen, who had been the Dean of Architecture at Tulane for 8 years when he died at age 57 in 1959.
Immediately after WWII he was briefly the first American partner with Nazi refugee Eric Mendelsohn, who designed the famous Einstein Tower in Postdam. Mendelsohn warmed to his example and reinvented himself in his last years as a fine practitioner of the informal Japanse influenced 2nd Bay Area style.

Dad's mother, whom we called "Garma," was the financial power in the family, the widow of the founder of the Dinwiddie Construction Company which lately has built the new Getty Museum and was for a half century a leading construction company in San Francisco. It built the Transamerica Tower and the world headquarters of the Bank of America. Garma was herself the niece of Colonel William Starrett, who supervised the construction of the Empire State Building.
Grandfather Bill Dinwiddie was a high school educated contractor who had migrated from Chicago first to Portland, then to San Francisco shortly after the end of WWI. He was working class in his outlook, was known to sign large contracts with a handshake. Never forgetting this, he never laid off anyone during the depression, and it is said that the line at his funeral was two blocks long, mainly his employees and their families.

He had to his credit the Russ Building in San Francisco, which remained the highest building in San Francisco until long after WWII. He built much of the Treasure Island, and the Zeppelin hangar at Moffett Field. He died in 1932, sold controlling interest to his partner. Otherwise I might have grown up rich.

Bill and Garma had five sons, my father the middle, and they all were given Steinway B grand pianos for wedding presents. Ours was the best, even signed by Alfred Cortot, who had once used it for a local recital. It belongs to my older sister Bettie, a retired piano teacher in Tacoma, Washington.

Bettie was 7 when I was born, only a notch or two less than a prodigy. That Steinway was her piano. She became a favorite student of Marcus Gordon, one of the best teachers in the region. She was playing advanced works by Chopin and Brahms at age 10. And age 10 was 1943, when I was 3 years old, and when our parents divorced. That year was as terrible as any in WWII. It started with the surrender of Germany at Stalingrad, continued with the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto, Guadalcanal, the destruction of Hamburg. The allies invaded Sicily. While Mussolini regrouped in northern Italy, Rome declared war on Germany. The time line this year was a nightmare. Our family tragedy swam with the rumors of the terrified fish of the world. But unless a family member had become as casualty, all was rumor unless it was news. "There's good news tonight," intoned conservative radio commentator Gabriel Heatter every evening at 6 P.M. In 1943 it seldom was.

By that year the Bay Area had been half sacred to death. Until Guadalcanal, the war in the Pacific had not gone well for the U.S.A. There had been blackouts continuously since Pearl Harbor. And although there was less censorship in the media than one might have expected, the first days after Pearl Harbor were filled with paranoia fueled by disinformation. After all, California was the next landfall after Hawaii and in fact it was attacked, if insignificantly, by a submarine whose deck gun hit an oil storage tank. And nobody knew what might come next.

The bluffs around the Golden Gate bristled with cannon and antiaircraft guns in a labyrinth of hardened pill boxes. Troops were continually getting on and off the Key System trains that crossed the Bay Bridge and stopped for at Yerba Buena Island where Chester Nimitz had his home, that island connected to Treasure Island. The Presidio was lit up every night unless there was a blackout. The Cyclotron above the University of California exuded sinister mystery; the forested area nearby was fenced off. Few knew anything about what was going on up there, but everyone suspected that a secret weapon was in the works.

One of my father's clients was commandant of Treasure Island, and when he, Captain Harris, received the news of Pearl Harbor, he already knew two disturbing, highly classified facts. The first was that there was a second Japanese carrier division unaccounted for. It could have been close to California. He also knew that in California were only 8 serviceable and armed intercept fighters. Captain Harris had built a bomb shelter a year before in Tilden Park for his wife. When the news of the attack arrived, he first deposited his wife into that shelter, then drove to work.

All of this spun about in the emotions of the adults as I came into full consciousness and of course affected me. I was variously fascinated, bewildered, scared. I was smart enough, remember to this day most of it very clearly. I certainly remember the blackouts. Mother would hide Life Magazine from us. We always found it, saw the war through the eyes of Life's great photographers. But we never once saw the war itself.

So there I would sit in the midst this energy, under Bettie's piano, the best seat in the house, listening. My mother's growing unhappiness was reflected in the records she played. Sibelius's Waltz Triste, again and again. Such became our incidental music to the stressed events of every day. A lot of it was sad, and a lot of it was dramatic. Rachmaninov's 2nd Piano Concerto ruled. Addinsell's Warsaw Concerto would soon become the Readers' Digest version of the same.

We played Strauss and Lehar waltzes. The Merry Widow chased away that poor dying dancer whose music destroyed audiences 50 years later in the Fantasia send up, Allegro ma non Troppo.

Our view of the S.F. Bay Area was panoramic and stunning, the center line between both bridges. Our steep one hairpin turn street was recently developed and was lined with first rate residential architecture, beaux artes, craftsman, modern. I was Heaven with its floorboards about to falling out. Bettie's music, the music from the phonograph, my father's amateur violin playing, Garma's own playing of the same 6 pieces over and over was what painted onto my ears its prevailing mood. And the wind in the lethally fire prone Eucalyptus that silhouetted in the moonlight were alien magic. Garma would play for Musical Chairs at birthdays. Country Gardens. The easy part of Chopin's The 3rd etude. The 2nd movement of Beethoven's Opus 13. Down the street the next Garma might be doing the same thing. Much revolved around the Berkeley Piano Club, still in existence today. She was one of its founding members.

The divorce ejected us from this minor Palantine Hill but landed us directly under it thanks to Garma, who bought us a house above College Avenue in the Elmwood District. It too was architecturally interesting. Its stairwell was canted out from the front wall like a two story lantern. Neighbors called it the pregnant house. Now we looked four blocks up to the Claremont Hotel instead on two blocks down.

The Elmwood District looked down home American, with a shopping district right out of Norman Rockwell. But it was still far from the bottom of Berkeley where raw sewage was still pumped into the bay, leaving a vile odor. For miles along the highway to the Bay Bridge that odor forced shut all car windows. The 76 Oil Refinery near the Carquinez Bridge at the other end of the East Bay also exuded an odor that certainly delivered chronic illness to the working class families living nearby. The East Bay had its well heeled neighborhoods, but as a whole, the Bay Area was on wartime footing and broken in many serious ways, the East Bay waterfront the worst.

And there was this stench, the emptying of South Berkeley's when the Americans of Japanese descent were interned in concentration camps. The evacuated properties were then filled by largely Afro-American workers from the south who built the Liberty ships.
I only saw this part of Berkeley from the windows of the Key System train, but right from the start I noted the decline in housing as that train moved down until at the last stop before the Bay Bridge at the flop house Key Hotel, one saw real mean streets.

All told, there was a smug and cozy conformity to our neighborhood. It was "above the tracks," red lined. Many households employed "colored ladies," who helped in housecleaning once a week. I winced 20 years ago when at a Berkeley City Council meeting I heard a Berkeley Hills matron use this expression. Berkeley was liberal except where it wasn't.

Musical tastes were pretty much standardized, the bourgeois upper middle class canon. Every other home had an upright piano, usually with a dog eared copy of "Music the Whole World Plays" on the music stand. Open it and find Anton Rubinstein's "Kamennoi Ostrow." Nobody could play it. Every fifth house had a grand piano, and in every one of those with children, some kid was taking piano lessons whether liking it or not. Average piano teachers were well off, good ones rich.

Record collections were all pretty much the same. Classical music was dominated by RCA and Columbia. The Franck Violin and Piano Sonata was very popular. Popular music was also standard, Bing Crosby, Andrews Sisters, Sinatra, Benny Goodman, Glenn Miller, and a dozens more. Ima Sumac and Dorothy Shay were hit novelty singers, one exotic, the other satirical. Cartoonist George McManus satirized the taste of the wealthy in Bringing Up Father. Maggie was forever dragging Jiggs off to the opera or herself singing off key while her permanently drunk brother sprawled in improbable postures on an ornate, curved staircase.

And an endless parade of radio dramas stole from classical music. The Lone Ranger sewed together Rossini and Liszt. The Green Hornet used The Firebird.
The FBI in Peace and War used the march from the Love of Three Oranges...

I wanted more. I wanted it stranger. The anonymous there music to The Mysterious Traveler haunted me. If it was weird, I listened. I heard a modern orchestra work on the radio when I was five, ran down the stairs in glee shouting, "MOMMY, come hear, the ORCHESTRA'S DRUNK!!" The war and the divorce, Bettie's role, left me as an afterthought, "nice little Johnnikins under the piano." The neglect left my id dangerously intact, and this need to tear down the conventional now may have been an unconscious accommodation to the chaos that came with a recently broken family.

I found a lot of popular music boring, and I made up classical music in my head up on Stonewall until the divorce. Then I stopped. I remember being able to catch myself when I allowed my imaginary music to slip into some banal sequence of diminished 7ths, stop myself in annoyance, increase my concentration. I was composing, and I knew it. I also knew that I equated predictability with quality, the less predictable the better.

And there was this. My maternal uncle was a Captain in the OSS. Prior to WWII, he was a freshman lawyer in San Francisco who early on picked up a very rich client, Ralph "Bogey Man" Reynolds, a leading endocrinologist. He and his wife had built at Soda Springs near Donner Summit a fabulous ski lodge with double bunk rooms for the guests, a roaring all around stone fireplace, the whole faux Tyrolean works. Swimming pool. Tennis court. This was not just some cabin. The reynolds had us up often, and I know that one reason was sympathy for my mother's situation. She had been astonishingly brave; the divorce was not her idea. But anyone in her situation could have used sanctuary. For me it was Heaven above Heaven.

Gas rationing often compelled us to take the train. Once we went up just after the colossal ammunition ship explosion on July 17th at Port Chicago. It killed 320 people, and the shock wave imploded nearby box cars. Not one but two side by side and loaded ammunition ships blew up, raining debris for miles to Martinez and beyond. I remember our train crossing a trestle not far from John Muir's home near Martinez. In the tracks next to our window passed by a hole in the ties that had splintered a half dozen of them. Most probably, something had fallen out of the sky from that explosion. Repairs took months.

Of course this was to me more exciting than scary. Kids love train wrecks until they are in one. Same with war, a delusional affliction of children in th U. S. A. during WWII as long as no family member became casualty. My wife, born in Luebeck, Germany in 1941, only to suffer the first carpet bombing attack history 5 months later, has a different story to tell about her childhood.

At Soda Springs, my sister and I would go down to the railroad platform. Soon a big train was bound to come, from east of from west. Big meant the typical freight train carrying was materials from Chicago to Port Chicago, Vellejo, and Treasure island. These were the giant cab forward, oil tendered locomotives unique to the Overland S.P. route. The reason these engines were built cab forward was that between Truckee and Donner Summit they had a pass through miles of snow sheds which funneled the smoke into the cabs. This solution saved lungs and lives.

At 4 I less than half the height of the flywheels on these behemoths. They would come up with three engines in front, two of them slaved. The engineers would always wave. Then the payload would be one hundred cars at least. Box cars, tanker cars, and flat cars, those often carying canvas enshrouded antiaircraft guns or howitzers, each can with an armed guard, a thought provoking sight for anyone, let alone a little boy.

Then came two pusher engines and tenders, finally as many as six cabooses for the staff. At the height of WWII, these would come by at a frequency of one every two hours or less.

They also came at night. I would lie in my bunk room upper berth while the adults were still downstairs with their cocktail and chatter, and listen. The Sierra Nevada is on the west side a series of east west canyons that go for almost 50 miles to the 500 mile long escarpment that drops in less than ten miles as much as 5,000 feet. This wedge geometry accelerates the wind from the Pacific and the Central Valley. During blizzards, winds can reach hurricane force at Donner Summit. Read "Storm" by George Stewart for a convincing description of the havoc of such storms. That wind though usually gentle, is almost always there at some time during the day or night, and in the far distance, a train sounds like the wind except for its puffing, itself muffled and indistinct at first. When a train comes from the east and shoots out of the snow sheds at Norden, three miles east of Soda Springs, one hears it instantly and very soon after it passes a quarter miles away from the Reynolds lodge. There would be as many as meters of puffing as there were engines, and they were not synched, even if they were close together in frequency of the puffs. The multiple puffing was arrhythmic, and then there was the Doppler effect.

From the west, who knows how far away was a train when first heard. And as soon as muffled puffing was distinguishable from the wind, it might suddenly go silent as the train entered a tunnel or snaked behind any kind of natural sound barrier. But soon it would appear again, often much louder and suddenly. Now one could follow echoes. It would disappear into the wind, become a ghost of itself, tease, fade, roar back. I would listen to this natural counterpoint for maybe 20 minutes before finally the full force of the sound burst upon Soda Springs, passed with the click of the cars quite audible, then the final majestic, misaligned puff of the two pusher engines, finally all into the snow sheds, leaving the Sugar Bowl and Soda Springs to the wind, which always has the last word.

Downstairs the phonograph might be playng in the evening Strauss waltzes or the Grieg concerto. I first heard that piece there, and once I listened to it, I looked down onto a table where there was a Life Magazine open to a picture of Norwegian prisoners being marched off by German soldiers. They had their fingers laced over their heads, the preferred Wehsmacht posture of obedience.

I am telling all of this to sum up what people have wondered about me. How could I have such conventional and radical musical tastes at the same time? I doubt that to be really too unsung for anyone who has been in the trenches of the avant garde. John Cage once told me that a childhood ambition of his was to become a pianist specialized in the music of Grieg. And he loved indistrial sounds as we all know. My season in avant garde music was surely driven by my memory. I had heard one of the greatest mixes of natural and man made sound in all of human history. Steam locomotives of this size disappeared shortly after the war, the new diesels cost less to operate and were lower maintanance. There is one perfectly preserved cab forward locomotive at the Sacramento Rail Road Museum. Five years ago with my grandson, I stood next to it. I still felt small.

ASTRONAUTA - When did you discover and become interested in avant-garde music for the first time?

JOHN DINWIDDIE - It must have started with the trains and the mountain winds, maybe the ocean which also was not far from us. I loved white noise of any sort, pink, purple, blue. I do know that. Nothing in new music was going to take me home again, but memories were always under the floorboards.

That, and the restlessness of my ear. I was frustrated by the limits of traditional composition. Great music is a train ride to the unknown. When the tracks are too well learned, trouble. One searches for a new railroad.

But my odyssey was long. I remember still when Bartok seemed dissonant to me in a way that irritated me. I knew somehow that I had to overcome that irritation, that somethings very powerful was in front of me. What was the first new music that I tried to learn? Pieces in Bartok's For Children.

I always pushed through my resistance, like getting used to spicy food. I saw Fantasia seven times. Stravinsky, Mussorgsky, and Dukas stood out, the last's eerie augmented fifths chords in the introduction. I didn't know what they were called, but everybody responds to the four triad types. We all know music long before we learn it.

Cathedral Rock reflected at Red Rock Crossing, photo
by John Dinwiddie, 2005.
I went to an unusual progressive prep school when I was 13, the Verde Valley School near Sedona. Arizona. Sedona was a one horse town in those days, a broken down western movie set nearby, a lapidary store run by a charming old huckster in a Navajo slide tie with a turquoise in its cast silver setting. He was also the world's leading scholar on meteors. Next door was the Hitching Post Restaurant, now hidden in a labyrinth of curio shops stuffed with kitsch. On the roadside for sale ten years ago two story high chrome plated horses. Charlatans with wire pyramids for hats competed to escort gullible tourists to "power spots" near Cathedral Rock. A fleet of strawberry colored jeeps hauled tourists up Schnebly Hill where car ads are now often made. Now Sedona is the Carmel of Arizona. Many of us who were there in the 50s now refuse to go back, do not want memories disturbed. I did in 2005. My memory survived, and it left me with plenty to complain and laugh about. Back then it was real, peopled with old Navajo ranch hands in jeans and weathered faces that hinted that they grew out of the desert dust. One could drive though Sedona barely having noticed it were it not for its setting. The area would have been one of our greatest national parks.

The road south to Bell Rock was paved, but at the crest where it passed just to the right was a cattle guard, beyond as far as it went, spine jarring washboard. Where now Oak Creek Village sport a four way signal, the road turned right to Verde Valley School road. Now there was no washboard, just red sandstone strata, ruts, and razor sharp sand stone dust. A car on this road could be seen for miles because of the dust cloud behind it.

At this corner, where now there is a shopping center, suburban housing, and a golf course irrigated from God knows where, there was at the southern corner an abandoned white one room school house. Other than the valley and the now famous giant rock formations, there was only that, one white dot in a Martian landscape greened with sage brush and scrub pine. That school house had been used by Colonel Brady, a pioneer in Arizona education. He was now on the Board of Directors of VVS along with Clyde Kluckhohn, John Collier, and George Boyce. When in a school bus without shock absorbers I first took this road, I was driving through history that I had yet to learn. I did know that it was the wild west. So did Hollywood. Several westerns had already been filmed in the area, and two more were to be filmed while I was there, Johnny Guitar and Broken Lance.

The co-ed Verde Valley School was 5 years old in 1953, with a student body of 120 and a student-faculty ratio of 1 to 10. VVS had a huge record library in its music building, and I wasted no time exploring it. In it was the complete works of Varèse, of Webern as well. I first heard Bartok's Sonata for 2 Pianos and Percussion, Ravel's piano concerto and the Capriccio of Stravinsky, both of them revelations, as was Varèse's Ionisation. And Martinu's Sinfonietta Giacosa. Martinu never topped it.

So one might say that I discovered avant garde music in 1953 at VVS. But classical music also grew on me, and my first hearing of the D minor Piano Concerto by Brahms was decisive. I did not yet know Beethoven's 9th, so I did not know the reference, but I did know that the piano entrance was an extraordinary departure from any piano entrance to a concerto that I had ever heard. Its return to the volcanic trills of the opening was magnificent and elegant. The second movement I decided was the greatest single composition I had ever heard in my life. I still consider it one of the supreme works of the 19th century. That changed me. Steve Soomil, who went on to become a student of Milhaud at Mills College, wrote in my yearbook, "to Brahms's greatest fan."

Music at VVS was everywhere. We had annual three week long anthropological field trips deep into Mexico, a similar one week trip in the fall onto the Navajo and Hopi reservations. In both cases students were deposited in small groups at one place or another, sometimes just one student, perhaps at some remote school or Navajo shepherd's Hogan, left there, to be picked up at the end of the trip. Spanish was a requirement. 10% of the students played guitars and sang folk songs in English and Spanish. The rest of us joined in. We all sang. Our Spanish teacher who had grown up during the Spanish Civil War made up songs for us, many ridiculous. We had work jobs to justify a fair tuition with many scholarships. We built our own school. So Mara would give us a work song: "Vamos todos depresita a trabajar, holgazones no podemos soportar." We wasted no time making adjustments. "Vamos todos depresita a chingar..." She would start each class, "Viva España! Abajo Franco." Because in those days Franco was still not at all "abajo."

We were taught extreme self sufficiency. One night on the Mexico Trip, in the middle of nowhere, the school bus headlights failed. Ham Warren, the intrepid founder of the school commanded us, "just fix it." Phil Dempster, a science whiz, did just that, and our caravan continued.

Two more tales, about events on the Navajo trip:

The first happened when I was a freshman. Hamilton Warren was rich, and the school had been established with his family money. He was also very tough and on the ground if a bit reserved with the students. On the Navajo Trip Ham as always drove the old school bus, the most unpredictable and largest vehicle in the VVS caravan. He was taking us up Navajo Mountain to a Yeibichai.

The road was steep, narrow, unpaved, rutted, precipitous drops here and there. We drove the whole trip in 2nd gear. We arrived after midnight, tumbled out half asleep and looked upon the scene. We were on a large plateau about 3/4 the way up the mountain. What we saw was a huge circle of people, at least 100, who were doing a static two step around a bon fire twelve feet high that sent sparks and smoke far above the crowd. Dust from the dancing ringed the smoke like an upside down atomic bomb. The scene was sepia, all earth tones, beyond the intense yellow light of the fire, every dancer in dusty tan attire, couples all the way around the circle, singles interspersed. It was informal. people would join in, drop out, come back. It had been going on since sundown, and it would go on until dawn.

And in step with their static sted they chanted incessantly, "hey ya, hey ya..."

I looked at it, and I wondered why Ham had taken all the risks to drag us up a dangerous montain road just to see this rather boring scene. But I also answered the question with another: "what was I missing?" I knew that what I saw was utterly alien to my experience but not to the Navajo. To them the proceedings were sacred ritual. So what might that have been? This was my initiation to tantra and mantra. That prepared me for Pran Nath.

The following year the group that I was with went to stay for a week at the Rocky Mountain indian School near Brigham City, Utah. This was a Dept. of Indian Affairs vocational boarding school. George Boyce, on our Board of Directors, was director here.

It was as long a haul for the Navajo Trip as any made. It was a bitter November, and I was to get a bad case of the flu that approached pneumonia before it was over, but I was young and recovered quickly enough. Each caravan truck required always a "shotgun" companion in the cab to guard against the risk of a driver falling asleep. One night I had that duty, and the radio was on. Suddenly we heard this eerie baritone voice...

"I keep a close watch on this heart of mine, I'll walk the line."

We heard Johnny Cash as he first happened. As with the Brahms, I knew that I would never forget it, and out there, on that lonely highway, snow falling...

At Rocky Mountain School, too many stories compete, but only one about music. navajo chant has a default two note refrain, "Hey ya, hey ya..." one hearts it in the Yebichai not as refrain but as mantra.

Also everywhere on the radio, on jukeboxes, the music was American pop music. No "hey ya." So one day we were in the school canteen buying soda pop when on kid started songing "Do not forsake me oh darling... hey ya hey ya..."

I was later to learn that music notation may have started in response to the inability of Rome to control the liturgy in its new trans Alpine acquisitions. The Frankish tribes would do their pagan version of this troping. "Kyrie Eleison... hey ya" (their counterpart.)

VVS never ran a tourist operation for rich kids, even if a few of them were. it was up to date on the most enlightened anthropological concerns, and Ruth Benedict's Culture in Crisis was on everyone's reading list, about the threats to the Hopi culture.

The kind of troping that we hears in this canteen reflected just that threat. In Black Canyon under the Hopi reservation, we once saw at a government outpost a huge sign next to the highway that said, "TRADITION IS THE ENEMY OF PROGRESS." And the theme of Oliver LaFarge's Laughing Boy, also on our reading list, was that the product of severe sulture clash is death. Preparing students to assist in this crisis was the second mission of the Verde Valley School. And I was learning now that music was a canary in the mine shaft that reported on the progress of this issue.

There was in fact no school like VVS anywhere in the U. S. A.

I taught myself how to read music, was forever in the practice rooms trying to play Brahms and Rachmaninov. The musicteacher the following year had very advanced students to attend to, so I was on my own. I improvised a lot, just wild linear chromatic stuff with no particular system at all. My hands led and my ear followed. I learned that generic gestures could tell stories, that the precise pitch work of disciplined common practice improvisation was not only the way to skin a cat. On this too I was defaulting into unknown sonic territory. How did I know that I probably sounded like bad Roger Sessions? Duting my sophomore year I attempted an atonal string quartet, did not get far, but I remember it. It was better than I thought at the time. I was not a good steward of whatever gift I had, found no encouragement either at home or at VVS. Several of the more talented and advanced students however did challenge me, and one helped my, taught me more about jazz that I had yet learned. That was the late Ethan Crosby, older brother of David Crosby. He introduced me to Marry Lou Wolliams, Gerry Mulligan, many others. His tragic end in 1997 was terrible news for all who knew him.

Two student were step sons of Ferde Grofe, Grofe once gave a bunch of us an impromptu lecture-demonstration. Gorfe was a jolly fat man. He sat down at Ham Warren's piano and let fly with his Grand Canyon Suite, screwing it up in no time. He laughed, Snorted, "Well, composers make lousy pianists." Then he got right back to work. It was a lesson in attitude. If he could screw up and live, so could we.

Tulane and on...

I went to Tulane on a service scholarship, because my father was the Dean of Architecture. All the pieces that those advanced kids played at VVS continued to taunt me. I did love all of them. But I wanted some proof also that I too actually stood on this planet. So far, i had a famous father, a gifted sister, and no identity of my own.

A fine Brazilian pianist, Egydio de Castro e Silva, took me as a student. He had been a student of Robert Casadesus, and he once knew Bartok. Istvan Nadas, who knew Bartok better, was next door at Loyola, was soon to join the faculty at Stanford. in the next year I learned many of the pieces that those more advanced students at VVS were playing, Mozart's C monir Fantasy, Bartok's Suite, Opus 14, several character pieces by Brahms, the Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue of Bach, and the Cat's Fugue of Scarlatti. All but the Bach I played before a faculty jury since I took piano for credit. I acted and worked on sets in the Tulane Drama Department, when the Tulane Drama Review was still there before mass exodus to NYU. In the second year I was fool enough to major in architecture, and my father was distracted enough to let me do it. At the end of that year I was told by the professors that I had them completely bamboozled, that they had no idea whether or not I had the goods to become an architect. They did opine that I should get out of Tulane.

That was 1959. I skedaddled. I was now vulnerable for the draft, had no idea what I really wanted to do, so I enlisted in the USASA, which added a year to my service but all but guaranteed that I would be sent to Europe.

Before I left for basic training, Harpo and Chico Marx had come to town to chase each other around a piano in the Jung Hotel on Canal Street. I went with a date, and we sat right next to the railing that looked down 3 feet to the performance floor. So these old trolls whose skins were as weathered as those cowboys in old Sedona, did their famous act. Behind us a woman alone at the next table was clearly drunk. She would periodically call out, "Harpo, Harpo, play One Alone. PLEASE play One Alone!" Loud, whiney voice. It did get to them, and we watched their irritation mounting.

After about the fourth call, Harpo and Chico stopped directly in front of us. I could have reached out and touched them. Harpo whispered to Chico, "What the hell is One Alone?"

After the show we talked with them for a few minutes. They were kind and patient. They were also tired, brave old men keeping things going.

I went through basic at Ft. Jackson, South Carolina. "Yo gon get up at five a goddam clock in da mornin," drawled a black drill sergeant the first night. I thought, "he just put  'goddam' between 'o' and clock'." This is trouble. It was also music. I was about to learn a whole lot of music that I had never known was music. "I don know but I've been told, Eskimo pussy's mighty cold." That music. The Army had been integrated ever since shortly after the end of WWII. Ft. Jackson was near Columbia, South Carolina, a notorious hotbed os racist rednecks. We were not allowed to go to town, too dangerous. Although the ASA was an elite of the military, basic training was for everyone who could sign his name. There were recruits from the Ozarks who had never had a pair os shows. Those who had musical chops REALLY had musical chops. There was no room for bull shit. Beer cans were a foot long. i had to put on boxing gloves in a dispute, still have a small scar on an eyelid as a memory. The executive officer stopped the fight when he thought that the honor of the litigants was secure. I was lucky that he did.

Army bases surprisingly to me had fine libraries with large record collections and listening rooms. So during off time at Ft. Jackson I was able to continue exploring Bartok and others. The same held at Ft. Devens, Massachusetts, my next stop. I finally wound up in March, 1960, in Luebeck, Germany, the home town of Buxtehude and Hugo Distler, where at the time Christoph von Dohnanyi was local orchestra conductor and Walter Kraft was organist of the Marienkirche. he had recorded the complete organ works of bach and Buxtehude for Columbia.

It was here that I decided to become a composer. At 20 years of age, that decision was just plain nuts. But in Germany, composition is considered a craft that does not require genius. It ranks perhaps as a learned vocation which has a middle class that makes a living, often as church musicians. In Germany, the Hanseatic era had spread hundreds of sturdy little brick Gothic churches all over the countries around the Baltic, while the Holy Roman Empire had done as much in Bavaria and the south. Around Luebeck one finds them today every 10 kilometers or so. Almost every small town old enough has one.

The local conservatory was at time called the Schleswig Holstein Musikakademie und Norddeutsche Orgel Schule. The second part was presided over by Walter Kraft himself, Kapellmeister of Buxtehude's Marienkirche where J. S. bach once apprenticed. It is the largest brick Gothic structure in Europe. His half of the academy trained "Dorfkirche Kapellmeister." And now as then, there are far more little churches about than musical geniuses to work in them. What my own gift if any promised would find its way, but here at least I had room to be a journeyman. I just wanted to get inside the door.

One night we attended a performance of Abraxas, by Werner Egk. After a perhaps promising start, the piece as far as I was concerned lost it, and here it was playing to a full house. I thought, "I can at least do better than that."

And so off I went.

ASTRONAUTA - Your father was an architect, and you also studied architecture. How do you relate your studies in architecture to your studies in music?

JOHN DINWIDDIE - I was only an architect major for one, star crossed year stuffed with outrageous tales that have no business here. First year architecture was before computed aided design tools traditionally brutal and very boring, a ton of busy work, drudgery. My class had 40 students in it, and the next class above had about a dozen. That said a lot about the true purpose of first year architecture.

But I had innate instinct for a proportion and my tasted and standards were forbidding to a fault. I was to become a kind of avant garde music fanatic at my worst. Here I was a modern architecture, art, literature probably necktie fanatic. I was that, come to think of it. San Francisco, which I still visited in summertime, was under the spell of the Beat culture, with it Zen. Ernst Neckties on California Street were the best looking ties on earth, narrow, earth toned patterns, excellent fabric, each small batch. Snd not really too expensive. I wore nothing but Ernst ties. Tweed jacket with patched elbows, jeand, half Ivy League, half west coast. That was the costume of preppies in those days, tie optional however, call that one formal dress. Or the black turtle sweater and Beret, copy of Howl in every back pocket. This Apollonian taste was to my liking. What was about to come much less so. I felt hippies to be invaders.

My tastes were most of all forged in the shadow of my father, a splendid architect who never strayed from the command, "form follows function." VVS continued that foundation with an art teacher, John Sandlin, a dynamite painter, who taught the history of art with unforgiving vengeance. Like many prep school teachers, he would have rather taught college, so he did just that until an uptight dean on academics gave Wylie Sypher's Four Stages of Renaissance Style the Fogg Test. The Fogg test counts syllables per word on a sample page and then rates a book as to its appropriates for grade levels. That book rang the bell at the university graduate level. The dean tried then to pull it, and, naturally, the school erupted. We had already learned enough there to be uncontrollable when things got silly.

Sandlin's Reading list also included works by Sir Herbert Read, (just about everything) Grace, Eliel Saarinen (The Search for Form, The City), Lewis Mumford (just about everything), Frank Lloyd Wright, Louis Sullivan - you get the idea. He stuffed the school library with Skira art books until the librarian said that she could not afford to buy any more. 

And Geoffrey Bret Harte, grandson of Gold Rush story teller Francis Bret Harte. Geoffrey was assistant director of VVS and the architect of its ambitious history department. He looked a bit like the king in the Wizard of Id, and he had passion for his craft. We called him "Paraoh." His program started in the 9th Grade with Classical Civilization, with Geoffrey Bibby as the text. That was history straight up. In the senior year, after two of medieval and modern European history was an elective, Otigins of Western Civilization, which repeated Classical Civilization, this time with an emphasis on philosophy. It was tough.

Old Pharaoh had a large cabinet of beautiful black and white photos of ancient architecture professionally mounted on grey poster board. He would remove one to show us as Carter might have lifted a treasure from the tomb of Tutenkhamun for first public view. My term paper for the first year was an analysis of the proportional illusions of the Parthenon. 

In an evening activity of draftsmanship, we all did the same multicolor Kohinoor pen realization of a protracted circle that produced the Golden Section which Bartok and artists across centuries have used as a proportional device.

And then there were students themselves. Many of us are still friends. The school had permitted me to skip a grade to get in, and, immature, not uncommonly brilliant with zero study habits, I now faced competitors who had been brought up on the east coast where primary and secondary academics were much more rigorous, additionally from at least a dozen kids whose parents were university professors. I was one of those, to be sure, but my father was a remote hero, not an on the ground guide. Classmate Phil Dempster was the son of the chairman of the U. C. B. genetics department, Henry Vaux the son of U. C. B.'s forestry school dean. Two were children of Columbia professors, and one of them, the late Kellner Schwartz, tragically lost several years later to a boating accident in Canada, was the son of Columbia's R, Plato Schwartz. Kellner may have been a genius. He certainly took best advantage of his privileged station, bought every new soft cover in sight just at the point where large soft covers were revolutionizing publishing. His dorm room was across from mine. I would go in, look at the books. Try six different works of Samuel Beckett. He was 16.

I was very challenged by this examplo, and I have books on my shelf today that I bought when wanting to catch up to him. I had only read one novel by then, The White Tower by Ullman, which I read with the Bruch Violin Concerto on my turntable. That was where I was. Varèse was not yet at the head of the line of my influences. I learned recently that several years before I arrived, Geoffrey Bret Harte had read aloud to students in an evening activity the entirety of The White Tower, then a sensation, now dated. Kellner was indeed exceptional. Poet Susan Marshall North was another. She introduced me to the Beat poets, gave me books of them, a Grove Press recording of many of them reading, including Ginsberg reading Howl. That too was music education that shaped me. I was chasing just departed busses in all directions. My beginning studies Germany led me to upper division work at U. C. Berkeley, soon after to graduate school in 1966 at U. C. Davis. One professor from the Hamburg Conservatory must be mentioned, American expatriate pianist Robert Henry, a tudent of Eduard Erdmann who assumed his position at Hamburg when Erdmann died. This man is a great artist, and he taught me the fundamentals of advance piano technique that I have never renounced. Only David Tudor has had as much influence on me, and that influence not on piano playing - I mean really now - but on general music philosophy.

U. C. Davis at that time had a rich endowment for visiting professors, so in my three years there I had for teachers Stockhausen, David Tudor, Charles Rosen for analysis, and in the final year, 1969, John Cage.

Kalheinz came first. His first assignment to the composition seminar was a design problem that Paul Klee had long ago to Bauhaus art students.

Klee set forth eight groups of lines and dots that represented high level events. For example, he would draw an icon that had three horizontal lines that started in three different places and then stopped at the same time. This represented three events start at different times and end together. Then he reversed the pattern. Then three lines that started and ended at the same time, representing three different events that started and ended at the same time. And so on.

Karlheinz asked us to write piece that demonstrated these shapes, that continued with variations in their order and interaction. That was the assignment, and we had three weeks to do it at home. But first we had one afternoon to do it in the class. My ear was not acute enough to model atonally and drop pitches onto to staves whose interval relationships i precisely heard. I always composed from the piano. But I had natural instinct for proportion, that honed by training just traced.

So I faked my way through the in class assignment, coming up with a page that looked as avant garde as all get out, although I hadn't a clear sense of what it sounded like. I thought, "I hope I survive this," turned in my masterpiece.

Stockhausen reviewed that muct the following week. He came to mine last, looked out, said, "I can't understand Dinwiddie's pitch work, but he has the best proportions in the class."

I thought, "He's good. I'm still in the game."

Three weeks later we all turned in our grander efforts, and house pianist Marvin Tartak was given the scores of all. He played them to the seminar the following week. But beforehand he came to me, said kindly enough that there were some nice sounds in the work but that he couldn't understand some on my notation, that I would have to play my piece myself.

There was a difficult section, an explosion of fireworks notes that climaxed this five minute character piece. I had the noon hour to learn it. I was at best an average pianist, inexperienced as well in public performance let along this. It was scary.

I was again last. I sat down, got a grip, went to work. The first part was easy. But that big sweep was waiting, and when I got to it, I simply faked it. I then finished with one of the best endings I have ever put onto a piece.

Stockhausen sat there with his forehead in his hand, a common listening posture for him. Then he looked at me and said, "Play it again."
I had faked the hard part, and now I was told to play it again. I played it again. And I faked the hard part again, and as closely to the way I faked it the first time as I could. Maybe half of the real notes were there both times.

Stockhausen sat there as before, looked up at me straight in the eye again, then said words that fell upon me ears like gold nuggets, "What can I say? I can't teach you anything. You know it all. You have made the first step like a lion."

Well, I didn't. But up to that point I had never had an ally at either campus of the University of California. Now suddenly I had one, and what an ally! But he turned out to be a very dangerous one. As were Tudor and Cage to be. The conservatives on the resident faculty were happy to catch the borrow light of their fame, but woe betide the students who learned anything from them, worse, admired them.

Yes, my father helped. He died the night I arrived for assignment to advanced training at Ft. Devens. I am glad to give him this credit at last. Thanks, dad.

ASTRONAUTA - In the early 60s you moved to Luebeck, Germany. What did this move change you musical interests, and musical learning?

JOHN DINWIDDIE - Luebeck was to me a second birth. All of us who were stationed there never got over it. There is a military group of the surviving of us from the 330 who were there about 50 at a time over a decade or so from 1955 to 1965. The Luebeck Association still has national reunions every four years, and four of those reunions at least have been a return to Luebeck herself. For many, it was a lifetime high point.

It was in Luebeck that i decided that I wanted to study music as a potential career. Composition certainly in mind, piano as well, but at first just to start and to follow my nose. That decision was made the first year that I was stationed there, when I was 20 years old, young, yes, but ancient for any such decision. I had already continued digging ever deeper into Bartok and modern music. Stravinsky's Agon had made a deep impression on me in the library at Ft. Jackson. Now I was in Luebeck where music and art history had been made again and again, the home of Heinrich and Thomas Mann. Organs played upon by Bach, Buxtehude, and Distler were intact in two churches while destroyed in three others, hastily rebuilt in two of those. The Totentanz Organ in the Marienkirche was replaced when I arrived, but Walter Kraft did not like the result and had it redone. Kraft restored Buxtehude's half hour free Thursday night organ concert, the "Abendmusik" that had continued uninterrupted until the Nazi era.

As a border town that barely escaped being split in two by the Iron Curtain, Luebeck's historical role as a trade hub for all of northern Europe was also severed, and in 1960 the city was still a long way from recovery from the 1942 RAF air raid that had destroyed a fifth of the old city in less than three hours.

Yet Luebeck in 1960 had a municipal orchestra under the direction of young Christoph von Dohnanyi doubled as the opera orchestra. My first date with my wife was Strauss's Salome, with Antje Silja in the title role. She was too much for Dohnanyi, who married her. Bertold Brecht's assistant in his theater in East Berlin defected and first landed here. We attended his powerful Mutter Courage. Later, when we returned to UCB, he was there again ahead of us, now directing for the San Francisco Actors' Workshop. The River Boat, a night club on the Obertrave, hosted outstanding jazz from all over the Baltic. We G.I.'s were surprised to discover that young European jazz musicians were often as good as some of our best, and with a distinctive flavor different than ours. They were not aping American models at all.

Luebeck had been at the beginning of the 20th century a center for many of the artists of Die Bruecke, including Nolde, Kirchner, Feininger, Marc, and Munch. An orchestra or opera ticket cost a couple of marks. The exchange rate was 4 marks to the dollar. We who were all enlisted men, with ranks ho higher that Sergeant, with two unfortunate commissioned officers to manage us. It was suspected that some of them were dumped in Luebeck, because they were unwanted anywhere else.

The "Jerkhaus" today.
We lived in two fine houses in expensive neighborhoods, because we were too few in number to justify the construction of barracks. But all elisted men are entitled to an enlisted men's club, so one of the houses had a complete bar installed. It was hoped that it might keep us out of trouble in town, especially keep us out of Clemenstrasse, the legal red light district. That tactic did little more than add to the fun for some of us. The larger house with that bar was on Juergenwullenweberstrasse, which we shortened to Jerkhaus. Animal House would have fit. It had been inherited from the Nazis. Its back lawn descended to a boat pier on the Wakenitz river. The view straight across the river to the old city island and straight up to the Marienkirche.

Jerkhaus was next to a church. And because we alternated on shifts, there was always a third of us ready to party. Rasmussen was one who spoke German fluently, and with enough drinks good do a fine imitation of Hitler. Sometimes he would let fly with the front door open as Sunday morning Church goers passed by. Enough complaints registered with Burgermeister, and we were finally removed to a more isolated site. But it was fun while it lasted.

We were in fact, one off the cushiest duty stations in Europe. On duty we were top notch at our not ever to be discussed jobs. Off duty, Animal House was an apt description. One language translator with a particularly mean disposition upon leaving at the end of his tour duty turned to me and snarled happily, "well, I hope I did my part to start WWIII." The Cuban missile crisis was a year ahead. This was no joke. We did in fact tread very lightly off duty in matters political. That kept us out of fights most of the time.

There were many Luebecks on that magic island one mile long, 3/4 mile wide, 100 feet high, and 900 years old. Each of us took Luebeck of his choice. All remember it as occupied paradise. It was in the British Zone and it highly restricted 5 k zone that ran the length of the Iron Curtain. Only the highest security clearance would gain you admittance, plus extra vetting. It was really an honor even to be there. We were not bothered by too many of our kind. A chaplain with the rank of Major, visiting us from Baumholder, a huge infantry base in the American Zone, furious at our refusal to kiss his ass, shouted at us in the insane compulsory monthly character guidance meeting, he asked us, "Who said the Gilden Rule?" Not one of us raised a hand. He was a huge red head, and his face now matched his hais. "You know what the infantry down in Baumholder call you men, DO YOU? THEY CALL YOU THE FAIRY BRIGADE!" We grinned an evil fairy brigade grin. We were Banana Troop, Company B, 69th USASA USAREUR Brigade, 5th Army. We called ourselves "the fighting 69ers." That was not widely appreciated.

"Air raid destroyed Dom brick Gothic area, taken when
I was 20 in 1960. This area was off limits and dangerous to enter."
John Diwiddie (this is picture AF 010, mentioned in one photo
at the end of this post.)
One of those first concerts that I first attended was in the partially restored of the DOM, the oldest of the Luebeck churches, one of two towers, the other the Marienkirche a half mile away, and it once had the rank of "cathedral.", started by Henry the Lion in the late 12 century. The DOM had a brick Gothic addition at the opposite end which had been down to its dome ribs. When I first arrived, I broke into this off limits area and photographed what I saw. The domes were shattered to the ribs, some of those broken as well. On them, small bushed grew from the nourishment of the broken bricks and mortar. On the ground, tall wet grass come up to my knees. Limestone sarcophagus covers carved with images of bishops were scattered about, titled at odd angled like huge drunken tombstones. They had been a part of the destroyed chamber's floor and had probably been blown up and dropped back by the shock waves of blockbusters that preceded incendiaries, the standard carpet bomb cocktail that bomber Harris was trying out on Luebeck before going after Hamburg the following year. If one of those had hit the DOM directly, the DOM would have been flattened. What else might have done this? Perhaps the incendiaries that did hit directly also had substantial shock waves.

Click click click went my camera. The images still frighten me. I am sending copies to the DOM archivist this spring.

The concert in question was Mozart's C minor Mass. The orchestra and chorus was installed in a temporary rustic wooden loft in sturdier Romanesque nave. Still, the roof had burned and was now covered with tin. It was the slowest performance of Mozart's greatest choral work that I was ever to hear, but it was musical. Imagine hearing this work for the first time in a setting like that. imagine! Another life changing discovery for me.

Our city orchestra conductor was Christoph von Dohnanyi, just getting started. One night he played Bartok's Music for Strings, Percussion, and Celesta, and of course we had to go. Bartok anything, and I was off. I was by now Bartok's greatest fan. I glanced at the rest of the program. The first symphony of Shostakovich. The Petite Symphonie Concertante for Harpsichord, Piano, Harp, and Orchestra by Frank Martin. Frank Martin. An American perhaps?

The Shostakovich floored me. Then came the Martin and although I have issued with it now, in that concert it too floored me. I left the concert knowing that I would perhaps never again hear an orchestral concert so memorable. Shostakovich's symphony was premiered when he was 19. I was 20. And i wanted to become a composer! It was impossible to ignore that absurd contrast.

There was the literary tradition, centered on Heinrich and Thomas Mann. You could read Buddenbrooks and walk the streets to trace its story. You could follow the trail to the posh resort and casino town, Travemuende, where Tonie's chances of a happy marriage were broken by family intrigue that prevented her from marrying outside of her class. You could follow the footsteps of Tonio Kroeger and his star crossed friendship. Buddenbrooks was full of music. You could retrace it too, right up to the organ lofts of the Marienkirche that was across the street from Buddenbrookshaus. It is a museum today.

"Three statues by Ernst Barlach on the front façade of the
Katherinium, a deconsecrated Catholic church now also
a museum. The middle statue is one of the most famous works
of modern sculture in Germany."
John Diwiddie.
And the great sculptor, Ernst Barlach, who for me seemed to carve into statues of peasants and beggars what Bartok wrote into his music. Bartok refused ever to speak German again when the Nazis came to power. Yet here in Luebeck I saw Bartok and Barlach in each other. So, thats is a bit of what Luebeck did to me, why to this day it is my second home. In the past 10 years I have spent more time in Luebeck by far than in Berkeley, now 65 miles south of us. The military supported off duty education, so I took modal counterpoint and beginning harmony at the Musikakademie. That is how I started..


ASTRONAUTA - In 1963 you attended a concert at the San Francisco Tape Music Center, at 321 Divisadero Street, San Francisco, CA, and it was the first time that you saw John Cage and David Tudor in person. What are your memories from that event? Was that your first personal contact with the SFTMC group? Did you keep in contact with them (Ramon Sender, Pauline Oliveros, Morton Subotnick, and Bill Maginnis) after that event?

JOHN DINWIDDIE - I was 23, just back from Germany. In Luebeck I had discussed John Cage with my theory teacher Jens Rohwer, a conservative-modern composer who respected Cage, even though he considered him more philosopher than composer. In an conversation with Henry Cowell at Amerikahaus in Hamburg in 1962, we discussed Cage, but Cowell was oddly unfamiliar in speaking of him, always calling him by his full name. I felt that Cowell had issues with Cage, that perhaps Cage had gone too far for him beginning with Silence, but I did not pry. I did wonder.

And that was all that I knew until the Divisadero Street concerto about John Cage.

So when four of us, the other two Malcolm and Linda Genet, whom I had known at Tulane who were also friends of Ian Underwood who was performing this night, went to this show, it was a new experience for all of us. Linda now ran the ASUC Art Studio, and Malcolm was a grand student in the UC English Department. All of us had prior experience in theater of the absurd and experimental theater at Tulane. Malcolm and I were two of the only members of TUT, the Tulane acting troupe, aho were not drama majors. Malcolm had played Etaoin Shrdlu in Rice's The Adding Machine. I had been the unblinking bell boy in Sartre's No Exit. I had been Thyrsis in Millay's Aria da Capo when a freshman at VVS. At Ft. Devens, I attended the Harvard Adams House world premiere of then student Arthur Kopit's Oh Dad, Poor Dad, Mama's Hung You In The Closet, And I'm Feelin' So Sad. We had seen Waiting For Godot in New Orleans' famous Theater of the Vieux Carre. We were old pros, ready for anything that silly old new music had to throw at us. So we thought. Winter Music and Cartridge Music were on the program that evening. At one point Iam Underwood sat down at a grand piano and played the opening parallel sixth passage in Brahms's D minor Piano Concerto. Then he got up, walked robotically over to a Sousaphone, stuck his head into its bell.

Who can remember too many details of this sort? Everything ephemeral by design. Nothing carrying forward. In all the plays cited, things do carry forward, if in the case of the Beckett on a Moebius strip. Cage was there, and I saw him on stage from time to time, David was there, but as always he was listed as an assistant. We didn't have a clue hat we were in the presence of one of most extreme musical geniuses alive. Some called him the greatest living pianist. I once asked David how long it took him to learn an average Beethoven Sonata. He just told me that he had quit piano because it was too much trouble. He answered, "4 hours." Then we didn't even know that he was a pianist.

We went home laughing ourselves silly. We knew what Dada was, but we had never before met it unleashed a theater.

As we approached the tunnel through Yerba Buena, I blusted, "I can't take John Cage seriously; he's too funny." The words stuck to their stupidity. Why must what is ridiculous not be serious? After all, the world situation is pretty ridiculous and it is very serious.

The first time I actually met John Cage was in 1968, at Mills College. I had already taken David Tudor's course and knew much more about him that I did when I was 23. But I was still very much the composer with a composer's buttoned down ideas about what a composition should be. I was ready to accept anything except one thing, a composition with declared rules that it then failed to follow. That I was not ready to tolerate.

Only one work was played that night, by David Tudor in fact, Reunion, written for John Cage and Marcel Duchamp, its performers. The performance was a game of chess played upon a board conceived by David and built by Lowell Cross. Each of 64 positions had a pinhole. The board itself was the top os a box. Inside under each pin hole was a photoelectric gate that would switch depending on whether or not it was covered by a chess piece.

64 leads from these gates radiated to mixers and synthesizers, whatever, then to the four Altec theater speakers that were the Easter Island totems of the famous Julia Morgan designed theater.

The two masters sat on a platform, and as usual, with the lights dimmed, that theater where the previous year Milhaud had to introduce Stockhausen and was not entirely happy about it, was spooky and dark. I watched intently and listened to hear what I thought should be exciting changes in the sounds coming out of the speakers.

What was coming out of the speakers sounded to me instead like anonymous default electronic music hellzapoppin. By the time the show was over, I was convinced that something had gone wrong, so I marched back stage with my tidy scruples, addressed John cage, "Mr. Cage..." I even had a tie on. I told him what I had NOT heard, and I asked him what was going on.

He laughed, retorted, "Oh, the chess board didn't work so we faked the whole show!" It was battle time, and if I made an ass of myself, I don't think that I bored him. He soon shouted at me, "BEETHOVEN IS TOILET PAPER."

We were however destined for rich friendship, and he was in corner more often than he ever had to be, stories for another time. But I do have a follow up on this one. When he was at U.C. Davis in 1969, I was a kind of gofer, occasional assistant. One night we stayed up all night together talking and getting pretty ripped. It was for me an unforgettable night, and like another such night that I spent soldering contact mikes with David Tudor, I took full advantage to ask shameless questions.

I reminded him of our first encounter, but i was out to prove to him that since then I was wiser and less uptight young man. I spouted some nonsense about understanding now that he was not so much slamming Beethoven that night as elevating toilet paper to a place of respect, a Zazen sort of thing. Just idiotic of me. John laughed tolerantly; "The truth is that I had had several margaritas."

ASTRONAUTA - What are your memories from meeting Karlheinz Stockhausen?

JOHN DINWIDDIE - Karlheinz never toed the line. He was contracted to be on deck in September. He was finishing Telemusik in Japan, so he arrived a month later, leaving Larry Austin to preside over the first month, which Larry did very well indeed, another story. When Karlheinz finally did arrive, he brusquely entered the seminar room. Inside was a conference table that was almost too big for it, and one end was close to the door from the hallway. I was seated at that end of the table, so when Karlheinz barged in, he all but knocked me out of my chair. Everyone in the room jumped up. It was if a general had entered a roomful of startled but eager cadets. I was pinned between the table and the door, which kept me seated. I thought, "Uh on!" I was a past master of bad beginnings.

Roll Call: who for the record was there?
From Germany
Rolf Gelhaar
From Brown University
Gerald Shapiro
From UCB
Will Johnson
Jonathan Kramer
Alden Jenks
From UCD
Stanley Lunetta
Dary John Mizelle
Me
Undergrad UCD auditors
John Moore
Julian Woodruff (who was to distinguish himself later in Charles Rosen's analysis seminar, also to write a fine improvisational format, Subjects of the Sun.)
Mark Riener
That was the class, and for me the court jester was the brilliant and notoriously irreverent Stanley Lunetta, one of the cofounders of Source Magazine and one of Larry Austin's protégés, the other Dary John Mizelle.

I have never in my life met a person who made a more stunning first impression than Stockhausen. He was 38 years old in 1966 at the final summit of youth. He was aristocratically handsome, and he radiated intelligence. His high baritone voice seduced immediately. He designed his own clothes. He wore a reversible Harris tweed cloak that he had designed and had tailored in japan. He was Beau Brummel come back from the dead. Perhaps Liszt. Wagner maybe?

"Stan Lunetta and I, Gerda's guitar, on the cat walk above
the shielding of the U.C.D. cyclotron where David Tudor
staged Ichiyanagi's Distances and Larry Austin
rounded out the show by writing an improvisational
format for the whole building, calling it "Cyclotron Stew."
The directions for the Ichiyanagi are to play anything
you wish as long as you are 30 feet away from
your instrument(s).
We were not, but we were far enough for the concept
to work as intended. Larry's piece turned down the lights
to spook the audience which was seated on folding chairs
atop the massive shielding. The shield door opened,
then closed, sending a bouncy shock wave through
the audience a la William Castle. A fork with its blinking
yellow light drove around, and the light threw up to
the walls atomic ghosts. The warning siren went on and off.
That and whatever else could be operated without
setting off a chain reactions was
Cyclotron Stew."
John Dinwiddie
Photo: David Freund, SOURCE, Issue 3.
Stan Lunetta had none of it. Stan worshipped Stan Lee and Spiderman comic books and little else besides his family. Stan had built in Brechtian distance switch. One day two weeks after Karlheinz arrived, Stan looked down under the conference table, popped back up and reported on what he saw: "Hey, everybody, everybody in here is wearing Karlheinz Stockhausen shoes except me and John Dinwiddie!"

In the winter trimester, when David Tudor was also a visiting professor, we gave a concert at Herz Hall, U. C. B. Kontakte, Klavierstuck XI, and Zyklus were on the program, plus a choral work by Franco Evangelisti. Stan was the percussionist, David, gamely complying with his contract, the pianist.

The concert went very well, and at the end we did what had become ritual to us in David's live electronic music seminar, which was simply to pack up and get out of the place. There was a routine for winding long cables, criss crossing them around wrist and back arm, so that they could be thrown across a stage in the next concert without tangling. This was ritual. We were all but a priesthood.

Karlheinz watched us from the empty orchestra rows. He came from the European tradition where composers did not wind up cables. Stage hands did. He must have felt the isolation there, where there were no stage hands, stood up, said "I will help." For him it may have been a sea change.

As he was working, a lone hippy entered the empty hall, came down an aisle and approached him, called out "Hey, man, do you smoke dope before you write your stuff?" Karlheinz was indignant. "I never smoke dope."

The hippy turned back, clearly disappointed. After a few rows however he turned around again. "Hey, man, do you smoke dope WHILE you write your stuff?" More indignant: "No, I just told you. I never smoke dope."

So the poor hippy retreated one more, walked up a few more rows, stopped, and one last time turned to Karlheinz. "Hey, do you smoke dope AFTER you write your stuff?" It was too much. We were all in stitches. Karlheinz cracked into laughter as well. We all howled. It turned out to be a very good night.

At last Mizelle and I drove Karlheinz to S.F. International. It was a night flight, and we had a final dinner, chatted, and it was a bit wistful. After all, we had become friends, and we had had some dandy adventures together in that one year. We took him up to a waiting room that was not yet beyond customs, and the room was nearly empty. We shook hands a last time, no fraternal hug for that one, and we departed.

Karlheinz looked abandoned as we left. His head was down. Dary and I walked down the hall, and we must both have felt sorry for him. The show was over in this town, where in Sausalito where he lived on a rented house boat, where a group of sycophantic locals called themselves "the friends and fans of Karlheinz Stockhausen." I mean, what do we show offs do when the show is done? It was for Dary and me also an end to an episode in our lives that would never be repeated, one that taught us an enormous amount, one that was often flat out fun and exciting. We lookeeed at each other, turned on our heels without out more than a word, and went back.

When Karlheinz saw us return, he smiled a greeting that I never forgot. We stayed with him until boarding time. As we again walked away, Karlheinz called out to me: "Dinwiddie, whatever you do, never lose your arrogance! It lends dignity to the profession!" I was never sure what I had done that made him consider me arrogant. But I did in fact have to stay seated when he came in that door. Was that it?

ASTRONAUTA - What were the main differences for you, in your opinion, between the first time that you've listened to John Cage, David Tudor, and other American avant-garde composers, and the first time that you've listened to Stockhausen, Boulez, and the European avant-garde composers?

"David, delighted with all this. He was happy in his work.
His challenge to the rest of us bozos was that he was probably
the most brilliant musician alive, and he loved doing this.
He was a good man, more heart than brain. Go figure.
Everyone came to love him not because he was some big bazoo
but because he loved back, did so eyeball to eyeball,
no patronizing. I'll be writing a lot about that
in my larger book." John Dinwiddie.
Photo: David Freund, SOURCE, Issue 3.
JOHN DINWIDDIE - There are stark differences. From the first, i was swept by the drama of the European avant garde. Kontakte is a very dramatic work, for example, as is Ligeti's Lux Aeterna, you name it. A core feature of Cage after 1950 is absence of drama. That is because there is an absence of story.

Whatever esle the European avant garde did, that doing primarily a massive inflation of serial structure from the multi parameter miniature works of Webern to the Wagerian sweep of Carre and Drei Gruppen, it did not depart from story telling. All of music up until very recently had been without exception story telling music. This fact is however so obvious that it can easily be missed. it is often said that fish don't know what water is.

There are three modes of answering this question, structural, political, economic.

Structurally, Cage's most revolutionary innovation to me was the establishment of a radically new kind of sound art, articulated sound events that did have rules but in which sound was never present as applied sound, sound employed in the drama of story telling through musical metaphors, high level gestures, however one might want to express it. Tied to the innovation was the political dimension. Classical music was top down authoritarian. It imitated the authoritarian state structures that sponsored it. It did not necessarily do this in a fawning way, although reading Bach's dedication of The Musical Offering does give one pause. Authoritarian censorship had thrown polyphonic liturgical music out of the Church for a century just after the event of the Mass of Notre Dame by Michaut. Apparently that interruption of old habits was just too much. It was a Council of Auvignon Wahhbi moment. Verdi was constantly dodging censors. After 1900, box office became the censor and remains so.

Whatever, Cage threw down a gauntlet whose slap was heard around the world when said that he found telling others what to do "an unattractive way of getting things done." And he went and found ways that were to him and to many grateful performers far more attractive.

His innovations did however challenge the citadel of professional, industrial classical music. The earlier 20th century idea of "Gebrauchsmusik" championed be Hindemith and others was rehash of the mid 19th century "hearth music," and at its worst it was patronizing. Its populist ideals produced dumbed down results. it did not take. Cage however had not dumbed down in the slightest with Atlas Eclipticalis. But amateurs could play it. That part threatened conservatory trained professionals. For this kind of music, they were no longer needed.

The Buffalo Symphony under Gunther Schuller once took on Altas. Orchestra members rebelled and stomped on their contact mikes. Schuller, ashamed, apologized to John, said that it might take ten years to overcome the prejudice.

Yes. 10 years after that happened. John conducted Atlas with the San Jose Symphony whose director was fiery George Cleve. I was there, and the audience was at least quiet. But one loud BOO from the center of the orchestra seats hit John between his shoulders while he was conducting clock arm style. he did not flinch. No. But he was human.

If a composer of the Darmstadt school wished to put into an orchestra piece a star burst, he might notate it so precisely that on page 3 of the event some poor piccolo player would get in a bracketed dotted 64th note somewhere in the middle of the 73rd measure.

The same burst scored statistically in an improvisational moment with verbal directions would get close to the same result, probably sound far more natural, and it would require no rehearsal. The Darmstadt version, rehearsed in the U. S. A. on union scale by orchestras not benefitting by state subsidies when playing required quotas of new music, would not be programmed. And in any case, the typical audience would not discern any difference and probably hate both.

The European avant garde has lineage, continuous. It comes from the well of history all the way back to the beginning of notation in the 9th century. To me it was to be a false dawn. I used to drop Stockhausen's name in the U. S. A. and enjoy what happened next. Now I get blank looks. In Germany, I am now getting blank looks. Some know of the kid who plays trumpet. Cage's cirlce of course shared in that lineage but there was that pond once called the Atlantic Ocean, and there was no much more that made of America a vastly different tectonic plate on which sits a far more eclectic cultural ecology. Jazz challenges far more in the U. S. A. that it does in Europe. Jass was a component of the collision between the European and American avant garde at U.C.D. There, the performance group, the New Music Ensemble, headed by Larry Austin and with performers entirely in his circle with his values, were ALL jazz musicians when they weren't avant garde neophytes. That gave Karlheinz some grief. David Tudor's defection had certainly given him grief. We, the students, were the dogs that barked as this remarkable caravan passed. I thought it a kind of gun fight at the O.K. Corral by the time it was over. And I consider it both microcosm and a node point in a major paradigm shift in the history of music. After all, the litigants there, the heraldic champions if you will, were the top advocates for each side in the world. It was in fact a smoldering, occasionally cold eyes and civility drenched battle of titans.

Finally, economics. We can't afford to put Drei Gruppen in the U.S.A. We may not like Atlas, but it is built for bean counters if we ever change our minds.
To repeat in a different way an earlier point, crucial feature of the difference is the question of improvisational which is unleashed with this new music. The performer is invited continuously to make choices that contribute creatively, not just recreatively, to the music. Stockhausen in particular did not trust performers. As an improviser he did not even trust David Tudor. His pieces do indeed have brief windows of choice, but he kept the performer on a servant's leash for a long time. Perhaps his year at Davis eroded that stance.

In conclusion, I consider the European avant garde one face of general decadence, a winter of a giant era. Again, this is not an accusation. I do think that it is an existential fact. And the American avant garde is almost certainly another facet of European decadence writ large across the pong. Story exempt sound design is static, spatial, a continuation perhaps of Satie's idea of "forniture music" that so fascinated Cage. But that is not show biz. Eventually it is mantra. It does not have the seeds of reproduction that I can perceive. There is a middle ground. An elegant piece, I think written by James Tenney for Harold Budd was a tam tam improvisation whose instructions were to begin with a measured roll as quietly as possible, gradually build up for 15 minutes to a fortissimo and then return in another 15 minutes to silence. Something like that and if I do not have my facts straight that is still a remarkable piece, certainly a virtuoso etude, certainly show biz. But its sounds are not telling any history than that of a priority archetype, start, rise, climax, decline, stop. The ultimate sonata if you will, in which the story however is self referential. The challenge of the piece is the story, nothing else. An avatar's road of life can perhaps be projected.

Im fact, audiences started abandoning art music as soon as atonality was in its sight. Cage is way downstream that revolution. His revolution in my opinion was far more sweeping than that of the composers at the opening of the 20th century. The Rite of Spring was the opening act.

ASTRONAUTA - You've studied composition at U.C. Davis, from 1966 to 1969. Also, during that period, you were involved with the magazine "Source" Music of the Avant-Garde." Do you still have contact with Larry Austin, Stanley Lunetta, and the others associated with Source Magazine?

JOHN DINWIDDIE - Almost none. We have remained cordial. Well, one other, yes, and recently, Dary John Mizelle is a very interesting musician, a prolific composer whom you definitely should interview.

ASTRONAUTA - And what about your pieces from that period? Are them available somewhere (or, do you have plans to make them available?)

JOHN DINWIDDIE - The piece that I wrote for Stockhausen I may record in the near future. It requires a functional middle pedal. I now own a 1929 Steinway B that has that function. I would like that and a few other works to survive me. Occasionally I am rediscovered, but I have never pushed my music since John Adams conducted my last composition in 1974. Several of the minimalist improvisational formats that peter Garland published in Soundings come back like Nasrudin's shoes, and some of them I still like. One on them, STROKE, for harp and 8 players, one haprist and seven pedal operators, was done in Berlin two years ago, I am told to an enthusiastic audience. I have never heard the piece, was promised a video tape which never came. Others from Soundings were done in a retrospective concert at the University of Indiana in 1997. I was flattered to get a one man show that I had not asked for, but explicit specifications for what to me is a really beautiful piece, Quiver, were not carried out, so I declined to listen the inevitable bad news of the tape sent to me by that show's producer.

Beyong that, bad luck with Lattices, the piece that John Adams graciously commissioned. It was a pip, maybe the best thing I ever did, but one of the channels failed in tis recording. So unless some orchestra ever picks up on that one - and fat chance, given what orchestras do.

And beyond that further, I started late, wrote little, was constantly catching up only to learn that the bus had left for something else. One other fine work was written in Luebeck when I was 21. I got me into the Hamburg conservatory. I play it from time to time, wonder just how the hell I could have written such a piece with so little training. You know the drill. Our creations eventually walk away from us. We know them as listeners or performers, not as their creators. It is a strange displacement. That piece was stylistically triangulated between Martin, Bartok, and Shostakovich. it worked because it was innocent. No more that be so.

The hedge hoping of styled that led me to David Tudor also led me to the design of sound environments, some good, some turkey, that simply are not suitable for recording. One, Little Pictures with Big Ears, is simply an unusual quadraphonic microphone array. The mikes are on 500 foot coax cords with inline amplifiers at the receiving end where all four channels are plugged into a quad tape recorder which records whatever the mikes hear. One has in this array a conic analog to the Afcock directional antenna used in direction finding. The score is somewhere in the KPFA FOLOI. Another was Census, which was an environment designed for the Exploratorium show. That one dispersed stereo sets belonging to a dozen friends across the 1,000 foot long semicircular interior of the Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco. Included were variable speed turntables onto which each station could play records of that person's choice. The audience was situated only in one small section near the entrance of this giant arc. FM wireless mike carriers wandered about the space, so that the sound from the stations came to the audience both with the time delay of the speed of sound and but the instant transmission of the FM mikes. One record was shared by all stations, a recording of the Trinidad Steel Band. A score roughly delineated activities with all of these stations. Those activities ended with everyone by one putting on the platter with the Trinidad Steel Band.

Try recording that. I thought it was a hoot, and I had slapped it together to fill the time block left by Lunetta's decision not to do the show. But Alden Jenks, God bless him, thought it the best he had heard from me yet. So I was told. By somebody else however. If it wasn't true, well, it should have been.

When I look back on what I did, i feel foolish counting myself in with lifelong composers. I was not one. But my hit hate in what I did was high. I have to say that my failures were spectacular and often mortifying. I disown two silly little pieces found in Source. I was on the make to get in with the big boys. I should had better sense.

THE DRY SALVAGES PROPOSAL AS APOGEE FOR MY CONCEPTS.

Had I stayed with composition, this concept might have started my next direction.

After graduate school I became ever more interested in computer generated music. i worked for awhile as a programmer at the Berkeley Computer Corporation. There I came up with this concept, teh most advanced that I ever imagined or proposed.

This was to be a setting of T.S. Eliot's The Dry Salvages. As you know the Dry Salvages are a group of rocks and a beacon on the New England coast. I wanted to generate a massive synthetic space that would be a cube at least four cubic miles. In it would be scattered the coordinates of perhaps a half dozen bell buoys, dramatic surrogates for the beacon. In it also would be a wandering reciter of the poem.

The overall space would be subject to topological distortions that would also distort the relative positions of the buoys, which would be ringing or sounding continuously. Also the reciter would be wandering through this space. One night envision the score of Cartridge Music exploded into three dimensions for that part, the reciter the snake line in that score.

The topological distortions, interactive with a performer/listener/viewer, would be limitless in potential. They could shoot one buoy past the next with intense Doppler drops, and the reciter would fade in, out, along with everything else dependent on the relative distance of the viewer operator. Thet point too could be dynamic, certainly be located within space, not simply outside, where one might be looking in at this imaginary scene line an enormous aquarium.

I took the idea down to the Stanford Artificial Intelligence center. John Chowning, the composer whose chutzpah had earned him permanent seat at one of the largest time sharing computers in the world, liked the idea. But he said that I would have to engineer it. I could patch a ring modulator, solder, plug stuff, turn pots.

I was not an engineer. So I applied for admission to the Ph. D program in computer science at U.C.B. That department was already looking for interdisciplinary new blood. The term was new, not yet a cliché. Laura Gould led the search, first brought in composer Chris Macie, and then I was admitted, simply floored by the luck. But not on scholarship. I was at the end of the G.I. Bill. It was fun while it lasted, but that was it.

One last tale about the impermanence of my music. This is the tale of the night that Winters died. I had been invited to give the first concert of live electronic music at Frank Oppenheimer's Exploratorium in the Maybeck Palace of Fine Arts in San Francisco in 1971. Another composer at first agreed to share in this show, then decided not to, leaving it to me. That was no easy assignment, but itworked out o.k. One of the pieces was my warhorse by then, Winters for Amplified Mirrors. This work is played upon large racks from which mirrors of all sizes are suspended, and behind them one so large that it vibrate at around 60 Hz and was hung from the A frame of a children's swing set. many of the large mirrors had contact mikes attached. Two to four performers played them, using air mikes for those unamplified, passing raw feedback through a tape delay that softened the feedback and made it marginally controllable.

Stage layout schematic, premiere of Winters at U.C.D., 1967.
Photo: David Freund, SOURCE, Issue 3.
The score was projected onto the mirrors from an array of slide projectors, that night at least four, far enough for each to cover all of them, each from a different angle. Slide types dictated activities, ordinary pictures, delayed shot of highway lights, negatives of same, pictures of the mirrors themselves, negatives of same.

This piece had been premiered at U.C.D., done at Zellerbach, LA, the University of Oregon, and it was on display in documentation at the Museum of Contemporary Crafts in New York. It had a track record. I never liked its sounds all that much, but to me it was the finest light show that had ever been put on stage, and my greatest honor was having been told that David Tudor wept when the curtain went up on it at the Davis premiere. And it was in part his baby. I created it in his seminar as my term project.

But tonight it was to die a hero's death and me no more. It had lately been in our living room in our small north Berkeley bungalow. It was getting in the way. Once we had a party, fired it up, closed the curtains in the bay window behind it to catch the projections. Little did we realize that from the outside it now looked as if the house was on fire. The fire department came.

It was time for Winters to go.

And as the Exploratorium performance progressed, one of the performers lost control. He was a fine composer. I'll never know what went on in his head. We remained friends, but we never discussed it. Whatever, after about 10 minutes he just started smashing the mirrors right and left. The piece was pretty static, and perhaps he had decided to give it some juice. indeed. It was now become very dramatic, a kind of farewell symphony for Winters. The grand climax came when he went for the big one. He whacked it with his mike as if it were that gong that announced J. Arthur Rank movies. It was gone, and Winters gone as well. Maybe I'm a Christo installation. Soon enough I too would be gone.

The usual vicious review the next day. But as we were putting stuff away, a guy approached me and said, "Man, I'll bet the critics are gonna give you some grief tomorrow, so I just wanted to tell you that tonight you really did something." So, really, my first review from David, my last from that kind man, were two of the best that I ever had.

ASTRONAUTA - What are the pieces that as your favorite thru the times (both from avant-garde and from more "classical" composers?) And, what was the last time you've listened to a piece that really caught on your attention as something really unexpected, or new in the musical world?

JOHN DINWIDDIE - Sooner or later most musicians give up on favorites. There are too many. Going overboard on one at the expense of another is a teenager's habit. I do have favorite composers, and that list is commonplace and boring. I love the greatest geniuses, and the rest fall off quickly. I can't play Rachmaninov or Scriabin. It takes a genius to play second and third rate music, because a genius can traverse the learning curve before the music starts driving one crazy. I always know what new piece might get into my working repertory. It's that old 3 day test. The new work will always be there, way too dominant at first. And if I don't want it there, I toss it. I can't stand Faure for the same reason, and maybe I should just fume about what I do not like, such as that Pachelbel Canon that is an anthem of the Aquarian age.

I mentioned the C minor Mass of Mozart. I'll play this game for fun of it. wonder what I'll choose. The four composers who drove me most into music were Brahms, Bach, and Bartok, my B's, and Mozart. Bach came first, but I never recognized him as an influence. Beethoven was to be an acquired taste.

Bach
D minor Harpsichord Concerto
D minor Toccata and Fugue, Stokowski orchestration
Chromatic Fantasy and Fugue, uh oh, D minor

Brahms
D minor Piano Concerto (hmmm!)
C minor Symphony
G minor Violin and Piano Sonata

Bartok
Concerto for Orchestra
Divertimento for Strings
Sonatas #1 and #2 for Violin and Piano
Mikrokosmos, Volumes V and VI
The Menuhim commissioned Solo Violin Sonata
Both violin concertos (I only learned the string quartet later.)

Mozart
The 2nd C minor Fantasy
The C minor Mass
The A minor Piano Sonata
The B flat Major Piano Sonata, KV570

Schubert
The F minor Fantasy for Piano, Four Hands

New music that impressed me included Stravinsky's D minor Capriccio, Ravel's piano concerto, Stravinsky's Agon, Hindemith's Sonata for Violin and Piano, Shostakovich's first symphony and first cello concerto, Martinu's Sinfonietta Giacosa, Martinu's Petite Symphonie Concertante.

The re have been lots of recent discoveries, and all of them have challenged my old school new school opinion that new music may be dead. It is not, and I also have to recant here what I wrote in the answer to question 11. yes, there are composers playing to conservative audiences by writing tonal works and then thinking that the date makes the work new when it is not. But there are also many examples of composers who have gone back to tonality and have written magnificently. Certainly John Adams has, and one has deeply impressed me, Kyle Gann. I play his Desert Sonata and Time Does Not Exist. Dominick Argento's Ms. Manners song cycle for mezzo soprano and piano. I heard an orchestral version (or it was one colorful pianist), hut that is how I find it listed now. On first hearing I compared this works to Les Nuits d'ete by Berlioz.

Thank to you, Fabricio, I have newly discovered Hohensee, also retro and still brilliant and original.

I started playing Liszt about 10 years ago, another acquired taste. The last book of The Years of Pilgrimage and his transcription of Gretchen, the second movement of his Faust Symphony, are now in my working repertory. Even Bartok respected the last book of Years, recorded its last word last piece, a Moses on the mountain declaration of the whole tone scale that was one of the main bridges to atonality. The torque of the chord changes in the last book of Years is enough to cause neck strain.

In short, I remain as I started, a romantic still looking for the next lost chord.

ASTRONAUTA - How do you see the future of the Avant-Garde music and arts?

JOHN DINWIDDIE - For me, the whole avant garde was more the end of an era than the beginning of another. It may well have been a false dawn, a last hurrah that ended the whole enterprise of European written music that started in the 9th century.

Written music is said to have at first been a means of maintaining standards in new outpost of Christendom that were remote from the close supervision of Rome. Since that introduction, the primitive notation which had at first been invented to control cross cultural dilution of church standards had the unintended effect of inventing the composer, and that as we know led to a centuries long round dance between innovation and censorship, and that dance became a tornado with The Rite of Spring that had never since died. Now the dance may have ended in, and with, Silence.

Maybe not. The archetypes of a story telling music, that is everything ever composed before Silence, were clearly spent if one were looking for something to do that was fundamentally new. lukas Foss complained to Larry Austin, "We are all writing the same piece." At a very high level, that was ever so, but 20th century a kind of Brechtian self consciousness about ti was a bowl of hemlock to its future. Once the wizard of Oz realizes that the control room of his own act is finite and can run out of new shticks, well, trouble. The creative impulse loses to the inner critic.

And could the Ars Nova redux initiated by Cage itself be carried forward? What does one do with what might be a big red light at the end of history? We did have a redically new paradigm for composition, sound sculpture in which sound was liberated from application, from the work building a metaphorical story line. But the habits of John Cage and his circle were old show biz habits, and this style presented serious issues as show biz. The audience had to make leaps in order to engage this kind of music, leaps that made acceptance of Schoenberg child's play. Things were already falling apart. Atonality was anathema to most from the start. Now audiences were asked to play to listen to what David Tudor called "gardens of sound." With the laissez faire contract between Cage and Cunningham, this kind of music still had a magnificent platform, but it can be argued that the music was standing on the shoulders of dancers going their way whatever that music was doing.

And Merce Cunningham I think was never as far out as was John Cage. His dancers have recently been confessing that they had real issues with hopping about in public to the beat of their own choreography and inner muse. The music did not always help them. And Cunningham was always a story teller.

This brings me to my last story in this interview, and it is appropriate that it is about my last encounter with the avant garde.

After David Tudor died, The Merce Cunningham Dance Company made what was a penultimate appearance at U. C. B., this time in the immense Harmon Gymnasium. The performance was of one work, Oceans, said to be John Cage's last work.

Well, some of it may have been, but all of it added up to a production that was not so much in John's spirit as it was Merce's. The piece had three giant components. The first was a full symphony orchestra that stood in a single horseshoe on a catwalk, under the eaves of roof, that surrounded three sides of the gymnasium. On the bleachers below the orchestra sat the audience, which looked down on quite a set up. Four stations of electronic music gear that looked a little like opening gates on a rece tracks were under the open end of the orchestral horseshoe. From between these four stations the dancers would soon enter and exit.

The stations themselves supported the latest edition of David Tudor's Rainforest circuit. When David created the prototype, it was very simple. A speaker driver would be screwed into an unconventional "cone," such as a sheet of metal. A contact mike on the edge of that medium, all the others selected, would pass into mixers, delays, processors, whatnot, then recycled through those specialized speakers. that was it, at least as I remembered it, very simple, very elegant.

What I now saw made me think of the flight deck of an aircraft carrier. I thought of David's crumby little Monarch mixers, the "Donald Duck" contact mikes, all the funky paraphernalia that he had taught us to use in order to build interesting pieces on the cheap.

What I saw here cost a fortune. Something had been industrialized. David has once warned me, "Never become an industrial composer."

And David was gone. I came to the show not knowing that he had died, hoping to see him again. I missed him, and I missed his glorious amateur spirit. As Larry Austin said, he had abdicated his virtuosity when he left piano playing, although he never ceased searching for something impossible to do. it must have been a pain in the neck to have been that brilliant. Now I was looking at industrial David Tudor.

The show began. The orchestra played beautiful, story free sounds. The dancers however pursued a course that was clearly some kind of metaphorical balladeering, and in any case, a dance step is a story. Sound can be emancipated from application, but the dance cannot be emmancipated from the stories of the body, never.

Rainforest itself came on like hornets from hell, screaming packets of sound flying across the ceiling from channel to channel in all directions, Doppler effects adding to the frightening impression. After all, sounds in spatial motion does put on its clothes. There is a story, a corporeal one, where it is going. If what sounds like a giant yellow jacket is zooming over your head, you duck.

Not that any of this was bad. But it reminded me of a reaction John had when I had described to him a production at Herz Hall of his music put together by Robert Moran. Moran had in fact put on several Cage works that overlapped or were played at the same time. Now John did just that and for 15 hours at Mewantemooseicday at U. C. D. in 1969. Still, Cage retorted to my description, "Cage-o-rama."

I was in my experience of Oceans perhaps watching my last hurrah - and its own, perhaps? - of a kind of a "era-o-rama," a final discussion of values between three great artists, Cage, Cunningham, and Tudor. They were not as some thought triplets. Cunningham, by now in a wheel chair and no longer dancing, could hardly have been called the last man standing. But here he did have the last word. I felt that for John and David, perhaps a recounting was in order.

This new paradigm on music, application free sound design, also breached the territorial limits of temple music of mantra. It was really not much of a show, whatever its virtues.

So what in its DNA guaranteed survival? Who would pay for it. David and John stayed employed since the platforms for both were very secure before they went off the deep end. But what about those who took them seriously who had no such platform? That was my situation, a large part of why I left composition. I saw this more clearly than most. Many avant garde composers to this day still don't get it.

In a very real way, avant garde music on both sides of the pond amounted to twin cults, their differences very substantial but to the general public very much the "narcissism of small differences." Whether an atonal star burst came from an improvisational chart as in Cage or was written out to the last bracketed dotted 64th note as in Stockhausen, the result hit the general audience the same way. "What the hell was all of that?" That was the question that mattered. They would never know. The dynamic exchange between audience and composer ended with the collapse of the common practice period. That period was not only common practice for musicians; it was the DNA of everyone. It was like the prior knowledge in Greek drama. Everyone knew who Oedipus was, but everybody wanted to hear what Sophocles might do with the myth. now audiences had nothing inside of them against which this new music could resonate.

That says a lot, I think about the prospects for a suture in this kind of music, at least as show biz, as a public, not monastically sequestered art.

And the question of its future is now submerged into insignificance compared to the current environmental crisis that threatens no future at all.

Finally, I would like to snarl and snarl loudly at orchestras who program new music that only is so because of the date of its creation. There are many clever composers today who toe the line, who are out to survive. To me this is a betrayal of art's deepest mission, the midwifing of the advancement of human consciousness, and, yes, Herbert Read still influences me. If this art is to die for natural reasons, the inevitable fate of roses in winter, well that is fine, but to murder a new body of artistic archetype in its cradle is cultural treason.

Atonality is the true music of the relativistic and quantum spheres. if we do not understand this cosmology which is the most precise description of our reality, atonal music at least engages us with it in spirit. It is not for nothing that Kubrick chose not one but two great atonal masterworks by Ligeti for his film, 2001. If you have the privilege of hearing a real performance of Lux Aeterna, you will know what the cowards of our museum culture have shoved into the ditch. That is real decadence, and not in Barzun's compassionate definition, but in its worst definition.

Enough of a geezer's fulminations. May we all put our small and great talents to work to save the worls. Then perhaps we can return to this question. Kids and birds don't care about what old folks have to say about the future of their music. That is after all a 19th century game.

End of Questionnaire.

PS1: A Last word.

It is in one way presumptive of me to answer these questions with any avuncular voice of authority, I have paid desultory visits back to avant garde music since 1974, but they declined rapidly in frequency. I made my living as a printed circuit designer and CAD engineer in the computer industry, seldom went to concerts of any sort. I did continue playing piano without interruption. I am finally pretty good at it.

With that hole in the middle of my experience, I could all too easily be making a fool of myself. I could have oversimplified issues, and I certainly have missed a lot of what went on since. I am clearly taking the risk of being a fool in the presence of past peers and betters, a few of whom have less than friendly memories of me. That concern merely bothers me while not stopping my testimony. This is why.

John Cage and David Tudor - his 89th birthday today, Lord have mercy! - did not arrive at the extremes of their values and their practices from Mars. They walked paths that we have all walked, but it seems that they were very much faster hikers. When I first looked at where they stood in the 1960s, I could also see where they came from. Where they went was at first incomprehensible to me, but I knew that both were much smarter than I, that they were honorable men.

I had always tried to challenge wherever I was at any time, and I have reported here on instances of that. It was for me a Leitmotiv. I had values too. There those two were, way out on the horizon, and I had to ask myself just why they had gone where they had gone. I needed to understand their motivation.

I still think that they went so far that now in the 21st century most of us do not really understand them or their choices. David himself said late in his life that he thought it would take 50 years for us to understand John Cage. And John told me once that in some ways David remained a mystery to him. I think that they are both still way down the trail beyond us. I am not looking at my hiatus, to me a pit stop. I am still looking ahead, if now only to a once and future kingdom peopled by giant ghosts.

PS2: Yes, I have heard all the stories, and many are sad, some horrible. I speak of people i knew as I knew them, and I speak as much as I can in the voice of my younger self, bright but immature, perpetually chasing life as a just missed bus. I had stars in my eyes at U. C. Davis. Shall I take them away and lie about what I saw through them? I am wiser. I am sadder. But I have not forgotten, and I shall not betray any who were my friends, mentors, and supporters then.

John Dinwiddie.

John Dinwiddie.
"The south tower of the restored Marienkirche, Buxtehude's church
where J. S. Bach for 9 months apprenticed. I only had a Kreuznach lens in my
past two visits which can exaggerate perspective
as it does here, taken in 2014."
John Dinwiddie.
"Marienkirche, showing the extraordinary brick Gothic columns around the altar and
the reconstructed Totentanzorgel behind them, taken 2014"
John Dinwiddie.
"A typical Baroque organ in the Agaedienkirche where we were married in 1962.
Without doubt Bach, Buxtehude, and the tragic Hugo Distler
played all the great organs in Luebeck including this one. The ones in the Marienkirche,
Petrikirche, and the Dom were destroyed. They are all reconstructed
except whatever was in the Petrikirche, also restored and now a museum."
John Dinwiddie.
"Front façade Luebeck Dom, taken 2014"
John Dinwiddie.
"Dom cloister area after reconstruction completed in 1990. The cloth hangings are sound baffles.
Walk to the end of this picture, turn left, and go back to 1960. Then you will see picture AF 010, taken 2011."
John Dinwiddie.
"The Marienkirche shortly before dawn, Palm Sunday, 1942.  The three hour carpet bomb RAF attack ended at 3AM.
After sunrise, Gerda's father biked across the burning city to discover the fate of relatives who lived on the west
side of Luebeck beyond the Trave River. As he passed the Marienkirche, the north tower, shown here, finally collapsed in front of his eyes. From a memorial permanent display in the Marienkirche, taken 2011."
John Dinwiddie.

Interview with Gil Trythall

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Harry Gilbert Trythall was born in Knoxville, Tennessee, on October 28, 1930. He began to study piano and to compose very early in his teenage days. At age 16 he gave his first public performance as a solo pianist, in 1947. In the 50s he became aware of the electronic music that was being created in the United States and Europe. In 1960 he graduated in Music Theory and Composition in Cornell University, in Ithaca, NY, and joined the music faculty in George Peabody College for Teachers in Nashville, Tennessee, in 1964, and it was just at George Peabody College that Gil Trythall assembled the college's first electronic music studio.

In 1968, George Peabody College received a grant and, to increase and develop further the electronic music studio at the institution, a newly released Moog IIIc synthesizer was purchased, and also courses in music synthesis were added to George Peabody College. In the early '70s, Gil Trythall was commissioned by Rick Powell, from  Athena Records, to realize an album with synthesizer versions for some country music classics. "Switched On Nashville," released in 1972, was a hit, and another similar album was commissioned and released in 1973, "Nashville Gold." In the same year, 1973, Grosset & Dunlap published Mr. Trythall's book "Principles and Practice of Electronic Music." In 1980, Gil Trythall released an LP containing two of his own electronic music compositions, "Luxikon," and "Echospace." This album is a real gem of the electronic music, and everyone who likes the genre should listen to!

During his carrer as a professor, Mr. Trythall taught at Knox College, Peabody College (now part of Vanderblit University), West Virginia University, Brookhaven College (in Dallas,) and from 1999 to 2001, at Universidade do Espirito Santo, Brazil, as a visiting professor! He also designed a program for ear training, KBA Software, and you can find more information on his website: www.musicstudy.com

My first contact with Gil Trythall was via Facebook, and then via email thru his official website. I'd like to thank so much Mr. Trythall for the time he gently spent to answer my questions for the interview, and also Carol Trythall, his wife, for some of the photos published here. And now, the interview with Gil Trythall!

Photo: Carol Trythall.

ASTRONAUTA - Gil Trythall, what were your first steps into music and arts? And what kind of music and composers did you like to listen in your childhood and teenage days?

GIL TRYTHALL - Born Oct. 28, 1930, I grew up hearing my mother play classical and popular piano. Dinner guests in the 1930's gathered around the piano and Mom encouraged and accompanied my singing. I taught myself little piano from a beginner's book.

I began formal piano lessons at 13 and started to compose. My first public performance was as soloist in an original composition for piano and wind band, a Smokey Mountain Rhapsody, at a music camp in Gatlinburg, Tennessee, USA, summer 1947. I was 16.

I played and listened to both popular and classical music. My favorite composers were Gershwin, Shostakovich, and Debussy.

ASTRONAUTA - How was your first contact with electronic music and synthesizers?

GIL TRYTHALL - I had recordings of European and American tape studio compositions from the 1950's - early 1960's. Therefore, when I joined the music faculty of George Peabody College for Teachers in Nashville, Tennessee, USA in 1964, I started a tape studio in my office. The studio had an Ampex 7.5 i.p.s. stereo tape recorder, a Roberts 3.75, 7.5, and 15 i.p.s. stereo recorder, splicing bar and tape, ruler, sine wave oscillator, and a big war surplus oscillator. I hung several octaves of labelled pre-recorded pitches on tape on my office wall. If I needed a G# above middle C, I went to the wall and cut off the needed duration. A good day produced about 6 seconds of e-music.

These compositions are now in the archives of the University of Tennessee, Knoxville.

ASTRONAUTA - How did you become aware of the Moog Synthesizer in its eraly days? And how did you meet Robert Moog? What are your memories on Robert Moog?

GIL TRYTHALL - When the College received a Federal Grant for the improvement of undergraduate and graduate music education in 1968, the College purchased a Moog IIIc synthesizer, two Ampex 7.5/15 i.p.s. stereo tape recorders, a Macintosh stereo amp, speakers, and provided a studio. We added college courses in music synthesis. An artist colleague at Vanderbilt University, Don Evans, and I created Multi-media performances with multiple slide and film projectors and e-music sound.

Video: Push Tomato

Video: This is a Test

In 1970, we began a series of annual e-music concerts at various colleges and universities with works for voice or instruments accompanied by tape. These annual 'Electronic Music Plus' concerts continued for 19 years. The programs from these concerts are now in the archives of the University of Tennessee, Knoxville, Tennessee, USA.

I first met Robert Moog when he graciously consented to write the preface to my 1973 book, Principles and Practice of Electronic Music, published by Grosset and Dunlap, out of print. (This book is useful today only as a historical record of e-music before 1973.) We stayed up almost all night editing the book. That was Bob Moog, a genius and friend. I met him several times more. He was always the same creative, friendly, generous person, not conscious of money, fame, or rank.

ASTRONAUTA - How was the recording process of your albums "Switched On Nashville" (1972,) and "Nashville Gold" (1973?) Which synthesizers that you've used to record that albums?

GIL TRYTHALL - One day a record producer, Rick Powell, who had just arrived in Nashville to start a new studio, Athena Records, came to the College e-music studio where I was working. Wendy Carlos' Switched On Bach was a big hit and Rick thought a completely synthesized country music album could be successful. "Would I be interested?" He would produce, select the music and supply an eight track recorder for the job. I signed up.

I transcribed the 45 rpm recordings that Rick selected from top country music artists; and I wrote original arrangements for some country music standards. I taught my classes, worked late at night after college for three months developing patches on the Moog to synthesize the needed instruments and recording each track.

As you know, the Moog IIIc is monophonic; so the arrangement had to be contrapuntal, a solution which my classical training provided. For background chords (pads) I patched and mixed three simultaneous tones (combining filtered multiple oscillators in each) with a push button switch that altered the chord third VCO's from major to minor as needed.

It was fun! Of course the transistors in the early Moog VCO's floated with changes in room temperature. Many times a 'good' take had to be redone because the Moog's pitch had moved up or down, but mostly up. This was great ear training!

I recorded Switched On Nashville with the School of Music Moog IIIc (working late at night after the school was closed) and a huge, vacuum tube Ampex eight track recorder that Rick supplied. I did Nashville Gold at the Athena Studio with their Moog IIIc and Ampex eight track transistor recorder, also late at night. Rick Powell produced and did final mixes. Both records were hits; but the only ones Athena ever had. My guess is that the studio was undercapitalized. Athena closed, a tragedy for Rick Powell, a fine producer and musician who deserved far better.

ASTRONAUTA - And how about your compositions "Luxikon II," and "Echospace," released in LP, in 1980? What were the instruments used on that pieces, and the recording process? Do you still own some of the synthesizers that you've used to record those pieces and other electronic music works?

GIL TRYTHALL - I composed Echospace with the College Moog IIIc and the two stereo Ampex 7.5/15 i.p.s. recorders using tape studio methods soon after we opened the e-music studio. The Moog output was recorded on Ampex one with the stereo tape threaded to the in-line Ampex two for tape delay. The playback from Ampex two was then mixed with the Moog input, L and R reversed, and re-recorded on Ampex one. I edited results with a splicing bar. The formal structure consists os 12 improvisational sections with pitches derived from successive combinatorial hexachords and a 13th section which returns to the pitches of the first hexachord.

Echospace has two versions: the recorded version and a version for live performance with parts for any number of brass instruments placed around the hall echoing the motives.

http://www.brasspress.com/search.php?q=Trythall

I recorded Luxikon II in 1980 with a Moog IIIc, the sample and hold circuit from a MicroMoog, and an eight track Ampex. I still have my MicroMoog and MiniMoog. I sold my IIIc. What a mistake!

ASTRONAUTA - How do you see the changes, both in technology and in the way this technology is used by the composers and the audience, in all those years that you've been active in the musical world as a composer, synthesist, and teacher?

Photo: Carol Trythall.
GIL TRYTHALL - I am privileged to have been an observer and practitioner of e-music for the past 50 years. This may be summarized (more or less in sequence) as: (1) the organization of music through tape splicing, signal filtering and mixing. (2) music synthesis using main frame computers (3) monophonic analog synthesizers and multiple track recording, and (4) digital polyphonic synthesizers, MIDI, sampling, and desktop computer software.

Commercial e-music is now a vast, successful enterprise, standard practice for TV and movie scores, no longer identified as e-music. DJ mix masters at pop 'rave' dances entertain huge, enthusiastic audiences using computer software for sample performance. Rock concerts and recordings employ synthesizers, audio effects, processing, mixing, filtering, and amplification.

At the same time, there is a small but dedicated audience for noncommercial e-music, identified as electroacoustic music, perhaps to distinguish itself from commercial e-music.

The American Society for Electroacoustic Music CD23 provides a window on e-music as practiced today. Of the eight tracks on the record, four are musique concrète, and four are for live performers simultaneous with recorded e-music. These compositional practices date from the early years of e-music. They are expert and expressive compositions.

Another group of e-music composers continue the 'new age', 'ambient', or 'environmental' styles. Often improvised, these feature synthesizers, sometimes with added instrumental and/or environmental sounds. These also continue earlier e-music practice successfully.

A recent development is the laptop orchestra, laptop ensembles that perform electroacoustic music 'live' on stage. Computer software for real time processing, mixing, and playback of successive audio clips and/or simultaneous recording also provides new possibilities for 'live' e-music performance.

Summary: all goes well; there is continuing development of e-music styles, forms, and practice.

ASTRONAUTA - Between 1999 and 2001 you taught at Universidade do Espirito Santo, in Vitória, Espirito Santo, Brazil. What are your memories from that period?

GIL TRYTHALL - I was a visiting professor at Universidade Federal do Espirito Santo from May, 1999 through April, 2001. My University host, Dr. Marcos Moraes, could not have been more helpful. Marcos and I developed the curriculum for a new undergraduate music major at the University. The students were enthusiastic and appreciative.

Beyond the University circle, Brazilian are wonderful hosts, welcoming and friendly. We made many friends and have many pleasant memories. We loved the Trio Elétricos and impromptu street celebrations. One night in Vitória, two competing Trio Elétricos, one or two blocks apart, playing different songs, came closer and closer to where we lived. The effect was wonderful, much like orchestral pieces by American composer Charles Ives - only better!

Carol, my wife, and I returned a few years ago to see friends in Vitória and to visit Manaus and the Amazonian rainforest. In brief, we love Brazil and Brazilians, miss them, and hope to return some day.

ASTRONAUTA - What are your most recent projects and plans to the future?

GIL TRYTHALL - Images dominate our information age. Therefore I post new (and sometimes older) compositions on YouTube.

My most recent work, Passacaglia in Eb, combines concrète sounds recorded on an airport assistance vehicle in England's Heatrow airport with music played on a Yamaha SY99 FM sampling synthesizer.

Video: Passacaglia in Eb

Additional compositions are listed on the right.

In late April, 2015, I will post (on YouTube) Three Fables for narrator, e-music samples from Space Genetics by Paul Scea and Eric Haltmeier (used by permission), with video of the high mountain desert at Big Bend National park on the Tex-Mex border.

Thank you, Fabricio Carvalho, for this opportunity to reminisce.

Gil.

Gil Trythall, January 26, 2015, Dallas, Texas, USA.

www.musicstudy.com

Photo: Carol Trythall.




Entrevista com Gil Trythall

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Harry Gilbert Trythall nasceu na cidade de  Knoxville, Tennessee, no dia 28 de Outubro de 1930. Ele começou a compôr e a estudar piano muito cedo, na sua infância, e aos 16 anos de idade, Gil Trythall apresentou-se pela primeira vez como pianista solo, em 1947.  Nos anos 50, ele teve seu primeiro contato com a música eletrônica que estava sendo criada nos Estados Unidos e na Europa. Em 1960, graduou-se em Teoria Musical e Composição, na Cornell University, em Ithaca, NY, e em 1964 juntou-se ao corpo docente do George Peabody College for Teachers em Nashville, Tennessee. E foi justamente no George Peabody College que Gil Trythall projetou e construiu o primeiro estúdio de música eletrônica da instituição.

Em 1968, o George Peabody College recebeu uma verba e, para aumentar e desenvolver ainda mais o estúdio de música eletrônica da instituição, um recém lançado sintetizador Moog IIIc foi adquirido. Também foram implantados cursos de síntese musical no currículo do George Peabody College. No início dos anos 70, Gil Trythall recebeu uma encomenda do produtor Rick Powell, da Athena Records, para fazer um disco com versões de músicas clássicas utilizando o sintetizador Moog. "Switched On Nashville", lançado em 1972, foi um sucesso e então outro disco similar for encomendado e lançado em 1973, "Nashville Gold." No mesmo ano, 1973, a editora Grosset & Dunlap publicou o livro "Principles and Practice of Electronic Music", escrito por Gil Trythall, com prefacio escrito por Robert Moog. Em 1980, Gil Trythall lançou um LP contendo duas de suas próprias composições, "Luxikon" e "Echospace." Este disco é realmente uma jóia rara da música eletrônica e todos que tiverem interesse no gênero deveriam escuta-lo! 

Durante sua carreira como professor, Gil Trythall lecionou no Knox College, no Peabody College (hoje parte da Vanderblit University), na West Virginia University, no Brookhaven College (em Dallas) e, entre 1999 e 2001, na Universidade do Espirito Santo, Brazil, como professor convidado. Ele também projetou um programa de computador para treinamento do ouvido, o KBA Software, e você pode encontrar mais informações no site oficial do programa: www.musicstudy.com

Meu primeiro contato com Gil Trythall foi via Facebook e, a partir daí, via email, através do seu site oficial. Eu gostaria muito de agradecer ao Senhor Trythall pelo tempo que ele gentilmente cedeu para responder esta entrevista, e também agradeço à Carol Trythall, esposa do Gil, por algumas das fotos que estão publicadas aqui. E agora vamos à entrevista com Gil Trythall!

Foto: Carol Trythall.

ASTRONAUTA - Gil Trythall, quais foram seus primeiros passos na música e nas artes? E qual o tipo de música, quais compositores eram os seus preferidos na sua infância e adolescência?

GIL TRYTHALL - Nascido no dia 28 de Outubro de 1930, eu cresci escutando minha mãe tocar músicas clássicas e populares ao piano. Quando tínhamos convidados para jantar, nos anos 30, eles se reuniam em volta do piano e minha mãe me encorajava a cantar, me acompanhando ao piano. Eu aprendi por conta própria a tocar um pouco de piano, utilizando um livro para iniciantes. 

Eu comecei a ter lições formais de piano aos 13 anos de idade, e também comecei a compor nesta época. Minha primeira aparição publica foi como solista, executando uma composição original para piano e conjunto de sopros, a Smokey Mountain Rhapsody, em um acampamento musical na cidade de Gatlinburg, Tennessee, USA, no verão de 1947. Eu tinha 16 anos de idade.

Eu tocava e escutava tanto música clássica quanto música popular. Meus compositores favoritos eram Gershwin, Shostakovich e Debussy.

ASTRONAUTA - Como foi seu primeiro contato com a música eletrônica e com os sintetizadores? 

GIL TRYTHALL - Eu tinha discos com composições para tape feitas na Europa e nos Estados Unidos nos anos 50 - e início dos 60. Consequentemente, quando eu fui convidado a juntar-me ao corpo docente do George Peabody College for Teachers, em Nashville, Tennessee, USA, em 1964, eu comecei a montar um estúdio de gravação, no meu escritório. O estúdio tinha um gravador stereo Ampex, com velocidade fixa de 7.5 pés por segundo; um gravador stereo Roberts, com três velocidades (3.75, 7.5 e 15 pés por segundo,) uma barra com marcação para cortar as fitas,  as fitas, uma régua, um oscilador de onda senoidal, e um grande oscilador extra, material de sobra da guerra. Eu pendurava várias oitavas de fitas pré-gravadas com afinações diferentes em cada uma, todas devidamente etiquetadas, na parede do meu escritório. Se eu precisasse de um Sol Sustenido acima do C central, eu ía até a parede e cortava nas fitas a duração necessária. Um bom dia de trabalho produzia cerca de seis segundos de música eletrônica. Estas composições estão, hoje em dia, nos arquivos da University of Tennessee, em Knoxville.

ASTRONAUTA - Como você teve conhecimento dos Sintetizadores Moog pela primeira vez, logo no início da invenção dos mesmos? E como você conheceu o Robert Moog? Quais são suas memórias sobre ele?

GIL TRYTHALL - Quando o George Peabody College recebeu uma verba federal para aprimorar seus cursos de graduação em música, em 1968, a instituição adquiriu um sintetizador Moog IIIc, dois gravadores stereo Ampex de duas velocidades, 7.5 e 15 pés por segundo, um amplificador stereo Macintosh, caixas com alto-falantes, e providenciou um estúdio. Nós adicionamos cursos em síntese musical na Vanderbilt University. Eu e Don Evans criamos performances multimidia com multiplos slides e filmes projetados, e música eletrônica como trilha sonora.

Vídeo: Push Tomato

Vídeo: This is a Test

Em 1970 nós começamos uma série anual de concertos para música eletrônica, em vários colégios e universidades, com obras para vozes e instrumentos, acompanhados por gravações em fita. Estes concertos, chamados 'Electronic Music Plus' continuaram a existir por 19 anos. Os programas destes concertos estão, hoje em dia, nos arquivos da University of Tennessee, em Knoxville, Tennessee, USA. 

Eu encontrei o Robert Moog pela promeira vez quando ele gentilmente concordou em escrever o prefácio do meu livro, de 1973, Principles and Practice of Electronic Music, publicado pela Grosset & Dunlap, fora de catálogo. (Este livro é útil hoje em dia somente como um registro histórico de como era a música eletrônica antes de 1973.) Nós ficávamos acordados durante todas as noites, editando o livro. Bob Moog era um gênio e um amigo. Eu encontrei-o diversas vezes depois disto. Ele era sempre a mesma pessoa criativa, amigável e generosa, nunca em busca de dinheiro, fama ou posição social. 

ASTRONAUTA - Como foi o processo de gravação dos seus discos "Switched On Nashville" (de 1972) e "Nashville Gold" (de 1973)? Quais os sintetizadores que você utilizou para gravar estes discos?  

GIL TRYTHALL - Um dia, um produtor, Rick Powell, que recém havia chegado em Nashville para começar um novo estúdio de gravação - Athena Records -, foi até o estúdio de música eletrônica do George Peabody College, onde eu estava trabalhando. O disco Switched On Bach, da Wendy Carlos, era um sucesso e Rick pensou que um disco de música country, todo feito com sintetizadores, seria sucesso também. "Você estaria interessado?" Ele iria produzir, selecionar as músicas, e providenciar um gravador de oito pistas para o serviço. Eu assinei.

Eu transcrevi os discos de 45 rotações que Rick selecionou, de alguns artistas top da country music; e eu escrevi arranjos originais para alguns clássicos da country music. Por três meses eu lecionei e depois trabalhei até muito tarde, à noite, desenvolvendo os patches no Moog, para sintetizar os instrumentos necessários, e depois gravava cada pista separadamente.

Como você sabe, o Moog IIIc é monofônico; então os arranjos tinham que ser com contrapontos, uma solução que meu treinamento em música clássica ajudou muito a resolver. Para os acordes de acompanhamento (pads) eu encontrava os sons e mixava três tons simultâneamente (combinando vários osciladores e filtros) e, com um botão eu alterava o terceiro oscilador entre os intervalos maiores e menores, conforme eu desejasse.

Era divertido! Naturalmente os transistores dos VCOs dos primeiros Moog variavam com as mudanças de temperatura da sala. Muitas vezes um 'bom' take tinha que ser refeito porque a afinação do Moog havia movido para cima ou para baixo. Principalmente para cima. Isto era um ótimo treinamento para os ouvidos!

Eu gravei Switched On Nashville com o Moog IIIc da Escola de Música (trabalhando à noite, depois que a escola fechava) e um enorme gravador de oito pistas Ampex, valvulado, que Rick providenciou. E gravei Nashville Gold no Athena Studio, com o Moog IIIc de lá e um gravador Ampex de oito canais transistorizado, mas também tarde da noite. Rick Powell produziu e fez as mixagens finais. Ambos os discos foram sucesso, porém os únicos sucessos que o Athena teve durante sua existência. Eu acho que isso aconteceu porque o estúdio estava sem dinheiro. O Athena fechou, uma tragédia para Rick Powell, um ótimo produtor e músico, que merecia muito mais coisas boas. 

ASTRONAUTA - E quanto às suas composições "Luxikon II" e "Echospace", lançadas em LP, em 1980? Quais foram os instrumentos que você usou nestas peças, e como foi o processo de gravação de ambas? Você ainda tem alguns dos sintetizadores que utilizou para gravar estas peças e outros trabalhos seus com música eletrônica? 

GIL TRYTHALL - Eu compus Echospace utilizando o Moog IIIc do George Peabody College e dois gravadores stereo Ampex, 7.5/15 pés por segundo, utilizando métodos de manipulação de fitas em estúdio, logo após inaugurarmos o estúdio de música eletrônica. A saída do Moog era gravada no Ampex número 1, com uma das saídas stereo ligadas na entrada do Ampex número 2, para efeito de delay de fita. A gravação do Ampex número 2 era então mixada com a entrada do Moog, canais esquerdo e direito invertidos, e re-gravados no Ampex número 1. Eu editei os resultados cortando pedaços de fita. A estrutura formal consiste em 12 partes de improviso, com afinações derivadas de combinações sucessivas de hexacordes, e uma 13ª parte, que retorna às notas do primeiro hexacorde.

Echospace tem duas versões: a versão gravada e uma versão para apresentação ao vivo, com partes para qualquer número de instrumentos de sopro, dispostos ao longo da sala, para gerarem diferentes ecos. 


Eu gravei Luxikon II em 1980, com um Moog IIIc, o circuito de sample and hold de um MicroMoog, e um gravador Ampex de oito canais. Eu ainda tenho meu MicroMoog e meu MiniMoog. Eu vendi meu IIIc. Que erro!

ASTRONAUTA - Como você vê as mudanças, tanto as tecnológicas quanto na maneira que estas tecnologias são utilizadas pelos compositores e pelo público, durante todos estes anos que você está na ativa no mundo musical, como compositor, especialista em sintetizadores e professor?

Foto: Carol Trythall.
GIL TRYTHALL - Eu sou privilegiado por ter sido um observador e praticante da música eletrônica nos últimos 50 anos. Posso resumir isto (mais ou menos em ordem) como: (1) a organização da música através de corte e colagem de fitas, filtragem de sinal e mixagem, (2) síntese musical utilizando enormes e exclusivos computadores, (3) sintetizadores analógicos e monofônicos, e gravadores multi-pista, e (4) sintetizadores digitais e polifônicos, MIDI, sampler e softwares para computadores caseiros.

A música eletrônica comercial é hoje um vasto e sem sucedido empreendimento, padrão adotado em trilhas de TV e filmes, há muito tempo não indentificada mais como "música eletrônica". DJs em 'raves' populares divertem enormes e entusiasmados públicos utilizando softwares para computador com apresentacões sampleadas. Concertos e gravações de Rock empregam sintetizadores, efeitos de áudio, processamento de áudio, mixagem, filtros e amplificação.

Ao mesmo tempo, há um pequeno mas dedicado público para a música eletrônica não-comercial, identificada como música eletro-acústica, talvez para distinguir-se da música eletrônica comercial. 

O CD número 23 da American Society for Electroacoustic Music serve como uma ótima janela para a música eletrônica praticada hoje em dia. Das oito faixas do disco, quatro são de 'musique concrète', e as outras quatro são para instrumentos executados ao vivo com música eletrônica pré-gravada. Estes estilos de composições vêm dos primeiros anos da música eletrônica. E elas são composições bem realizadas e expressivas.

Outro grupo de compositores de música eletrônica continuou no que se chama de 'new age', 'música ambiente'. Muitas vezes improvisadas, estas incluem sintetizadores, muitas vezes com instrumentos adicionais e/ou sons ambientes. Estas também continuaram uma prática de música eletrônica com sucesso.

Uma novidade no desenvolvimento é a orquestra de laptop, conjuntos de laptop que apresentam músicas eletroacústicas "ao vivo", no palco. Os softwares de computador para processamento em tempo real, mixagem e execução de sucessivos trechos de áudio e/ou gravações simultâneas também providenciam novas possibilidades para apresentações de música eletrônica "ao vivo".

Resumo: tudo vai bem; há um desenvolvimento contínuo nos estilos de música eletrônica, tanto nos formatos quanto nas práticas desta. 

ASTRONAUTA - Entre 1999 e 2001 você lecionou na Universidade do Espirito Santo, em Vitória, Espirito Santo, Brazil. Quais são suas memórias deste período? 

GIL TRYTHALL - Eu fui professor convidado na Universidade Federal do Espirito Santo entre Maio de 1999 até Abril de 2001. Meu anfitrião, o Dr. Marcos Moraes, não poderia ter sido mais prestativo. Marcos e eu desenvolvemos o currículo para um novo curso de graduação na Universidade. Os estudantes eram entusiasmados e apreciativos.

Também fora do círculo universitário, a população do Brazil é ótima anfitriã, amigáveis e recebendo bem as pessoas. Nós fizemos vários amigos e temos várias memórias ótimas. Adoramos os Trios Elétricos e as festas de rua improvisadas. Uma noite, em Vitória, dois Trios Elétricos estavam competindo, uma ou duas quadras de distância um do outro, tocando músicas diferentes, se aproximando cada vez mais de onde estávamos morando. O efeito foi maravilhoso, muito parecido com as peças orquestrais do compositor norte-americano Charles Ives - só que melhor!

Eu e minha esposa Carol retornamos, há alguns anos, para visitar amigos em Vitória e para conhecermos Manaus e a floresta amazônica. Resumindo, nós amamos o Brazil e a população do país, sentimos falta, e esperamos retornar aí, algum dia destes. 

ASTRONAUTA - Quais são seus projetos mais recentes e seus planos para o futuro?

GIL TRYTHALL - As imagens dominam a informação, nestes tempos. Consequentemente, eu posto novas (e às vezes antigos) composições no YouTube.

Meu trabalho mais recente, a peça Passacaglia in Eb, combina sons reais gravados em um veículo de assistência no aeroporto de Heatrow, na Inglaterra, com música executada em um sintetizador FM e sampler Yamaha SY99.

Vídeo: Passacaglia in Eb

Composições adicionais estão listadas à direita do vídeo.

No final de Abril de 2015, eu postarei (no YouTubeThree Fables, para narrador, samples de música eletrônica de Space Genetics, do Paul Scea e do Eric Haltmeier (com a permissão dos mesmos), com vídeodo deserto, no alto de uma montanha no parque nacional Big Bend, na fronteira do Texas com o Mexico. 

Muito obrigado, Fabricio Carvalho, por esta oportunidade de relembrar estes fatos. 

Gil

Gil Trythall, 26 de Janeiro de 2015, Dallas, Texas, USA.

www.musicstudy.com

Foto: Carol Trythall.




Entrevista com Charles Shere

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Charles Shere nasceu no dia 20 de Agosto de 1935, em Berkeley, California, USA. Na infância, ele teve aulas de piano e violino, bem como estudou instrumentos de sopro, um pouco mais adiante. Ele estudou música e literatura Inglesa no Chapman College, Santa Rosa Junior College, San Francisco State University e na University of California em Berkeley, onde graduou-se com louvor em 1960.

No início dos anos 60, Charles Shere estudou composição com Robert Erickson, tanto particular quanto no San Francisco Conservatory, e com Luciano Berio no Mills College. Na metade dos anos 60, ele foi nomeado Diretor Musical da KPFA, em Berkeley, uma das principais estações de rádio a transmitir música avant garde na sua programação. Os trabalhos de Shere como compositor incluem peças para piano, violino, orquestra (Nightmusic, 1967; Symphony in Three Movements, 1989; concertos para piano, 1964; para violino, 1989), poeta falando em línguas e orquestra de câmara (Tongues), soprano e violino (Certain Phenomena of Sound, 1983) e, entre tantas outras peças, destaca-se a opera 'The Bride Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors, Even' (1986), baseada em uma pitura do artista Franco-Americano Marcel Duchamp. Seus livros incluem 'Thinking sound music: the life and work of Robert Erickson', biografia do compositor Robert Erickson; 'Getting There', um livro de memórias focado justamente no período que abrange esta entrevista; e o recém publicado 'Venice and the Idea of Permanence', com ensaios sobre arte, culinária, música e outros assuntos variados. Ele também tem um restaurante chamado Chez Panisse, com sua esposa e outros sócios, e também mantém um blog muito interessante, que você pode visitar pelo link: http://cshere.blogspot.com.br/

O website oficial do Charles Shere e da sua esposa é: www.shere.org

Meu primeiro contato com o Senhor Shere para realizar esta entrevista foi via facebook e, na sequencia, via email. Gostaria muito de agradece-lo publicamente, por dar-nos um pouco do seu tempo respondendo minhas perguntas. Muito obrigado, Sr. Shere! E aqui segue a entrevista:


ASTRONAUTA - Charles Shere, quais são as suas memorias sobre o seu primeiro contato com a música e as artes? E qual foi seu primeiro instrumento musical?

CHARLES SHERE - Minha memória mais remota é de tocar violino em uma orquestra infantil na Feira Mundial de San Francisco, na Treasure Island, que fechou, acredito eu, em 1940 ou 1941 (eu completei seis anos de idade em Agosto de 1941). Nós tocamos uma peça chamada Kitty-Cat Waltz, que incluia uma glissando na corda de Mi, e uma garotinha que estava sentada perto de mim se mijou durante o concerto, porque ficou muito nervosa. É tudo o que eu me lembro desta ocasião.

Na mesma época eu tive aulas de violino e piano, mas de 1942 a 1949 eu não estudei nem tinha a disposição nenhum instrumento musical.

Quando eu comecei o segundo grau, no Outono de 1949, eu me matriculei para as aulas de música instrumental. Meu instrumento principal era o fagote, mas eu também aprendi vários outros instrumentos de sopro, menos flauta, trompa e tuba. Não existiam instrumentos de corda na minha escola.

Quando eu saí do colégio, toquei um pouco de trompa, até porque eu nunca tive meu próprio bassoon. Eu juntei-me à orquestra do colégio, e fui convidado a tocar as partes de fagote na trompa, até porque não tinha nenhum fagote disponível. Quando o concerto finalmente aconteceu, entretanto, um fagotista foi contratado, então eu fui realocado para tocar triangulo na peça "Caucasian Sketches", mas segundo trompa em uma sinfonia de Haydn.

ASTRONAUTA - E quanto ao seu primeiro contato com a música e a arte de vanguarda? Quais compositores mais influenciaram as suas próprias composições?

Primeiro contato: um concerto de música de câmara, com peças do Anton Webern, na UC Berkeley, mais ou menos em 1958; um concerto ao meio-dia, com peças do LaMonte Young e do Terry Riley (que eram então alunos da UC Berkeley), mais ou menos no mesmo ano; um concerto com peças do John Cage, com o próprio Cage e o David Tudor, em San Francisco, 1960. Levou algum tempo, alguns anos, para chegar em um acordo com este tipo de música, mas eu imediatamente a achei fascinante. Naqueles tempos, a estação de rádio KPFA transmitia uma série chamada "Contemporary Music in Evolution," com curadoria e produção de Gunther Schuller, e também transmitia ao vivo de Donaueschingen e outros festivais.

Minhas influências: Webern; Ives; Satie; Earle Brown; Roman Haubenstock-Ramati; Cage, eu suponho; e Erickson.



ASTRONAUTA - No início dos anos 60, você estudou com Robert Erickson e, mais tarde, também escreveu um livro sobre ele (Thinking Sound Music: The Life and Work of Robert Erickson.) Quais as suas memórias sobre a primeira vez que você teve contato com o Robert Erickson, e também sobre o seu último contato com ele, se você não se importar de entrarmos no assunto?

CHARLES SHERE - Eu acho que fui apresentado ao Erickson pelo Gerhard Samuel, que era o regente da Oakland Symphony, e com quem eu tive algumas aulas de regência. Eu lembro poucas coisas especificas sobre os métodos de lecionar do Erickson, que pareciam muito tolerantes, embasados e gentis.  Ele nos ensinava - ei estudei com ele no San Francisco Conservatory, bem como particularmente - ele nos ensinava a usar a régua de medir ângulos para "modular" o tempo, mudando os ritmos de, por exemplo,  de uma semínima para uma semínima pontuada, para uma colcheia, e então utilizar esta como o novo tempo para a semínima, e assim por diante. Ele também nos apresentou às formas angulares de tipos e ao Rapidograph, que permitia-nos desenhar nossos próprios marcadores que, hoje em dia reconheço, libertava-nos das convenções, e este era um aspecto importante dos seus ensinamentos.

Depois de mudar-se para San Diego, para ajudar a projetar o departamento de música na UC San Diego, eu o ví poucas vezes; mas quando comecei a escrever sua biografia, eu tentava ir visita-lo a cada ano, pelo menos. Ele estava bastante doente, nos ultimos anos de vida. Um pouco antes de falecer, ele me perguntou quando meu livro seria lançado. Não até eu acaba-lo, eu dizia. Bom, acabe, ele dizia. Ele nunca mencionou que outro livro estava sendo escrito, por outro autor.

ASTRONAUTA - E quanto a Luciano Berio, outro dos seus professores de composição?

Duas histórias engraçadas: eu cheguei cedo em uma das suas aulas; ele estava no quadro negro, terminando de escrever uma melodia deslumbrante, que eu tomei como sendo do J. S. Bach. Quando eu disse a ele o quão bonita a melodia era, ele sorriu e disse que ele recem a havia pensado. Em outra ocasião, ele estava ensaiando um conjunto para apresentar sua peça "Circles", e o harpista reclamou que sua escrita era muito percussiva para o instrumento. Você não entende a harpa, o músico disse, a harpa é um instrumento complexo, metade fêmea, metade macho. Bem, disse Berio com desdém, olhando para suas calcas, eu sou macho por inteiro.

Das aulas de Berio eu lembro principalmente dos exercicios envolvendo quadrados mágicos de númeors, aquele tipo de coisa. Não muito preocupado com o andamento do trabalho, mudanças e desenvolvimentos, como Erickson fazia muito bem.

ASTRONAUTA - Na metade dos anos 60 você passou a ser o Diretor Musical da KPFA, um dos mais importantes veículos na promoção das artes de vanguarda do seu período. Era também a época em que a cena rock psicodélica passou a chamar a atenção para a California, principalmente para a cidade de San Francisco. Como você vê e descreve a importancia da KPFA, e como você relaciona a rádio com outras estações do mesmo período?

CHARLES SHERE - Resumidamente, a importância da KPFA, durante os anos 60 - eu assumi o posto de Diretor Musical em 1967, e me desliguei completamente da estação em 1970 - sua importância foi em tornar acessível uma música nova e incomum, vinda de várias partes do mundo. Haviam poucas gravações comerciais deste tipo de música naquela época e, naturalmente, não havia Internet. Também haviam discussões, resenhas e entrevistas - eu entrevistei o Boulez, por exemplo, e o Feldman, o Cage, o Stockhausen, sempre aproveitando a oportunidade para tentar entrar um pouco nos seus pensamentos e no seu trabalho, para tentar compreender, e muitas vezes eu deliberadamente copiava, para ter um maior conhecimento do funcionamento. (Haviam me ensinado a fazer isto nas minhas primeiras aulas de teoria musical no Chapman College, em Los Angeles, em 1953; e, além disso, naqueles dias pré-máquinas copiadoras, como eu não podia adquirir as partituras de Webern, por exemplo, eu as copiava na biblioteca.)

Eu mesmo nunca senti nenhuma atração por rock, mas vários dos músicos de rock emergentes tiveram suas primeiras exposições a coisas novas através da KPFA. Eu me transferi para o Mills College para minhas aulas com Berio, por exemplo, juntamente com Phil Lesh e Tom Constanten, antes de Phil ajudar a formar o Grateful Dead - ele tocou trumpete em uma peça que eu escrevi para uma produção da UC Berkeley de uma peça do Tennessee Williams (Camino Real), por volta de 1960.

A KPFA tinha estações irmãs naquela época, em New York (WBAI) e Los Angeles (KPFK), mas minha impressão é de que a San Francisco Bay Area era mais inovadora do que New York e Los Angeles, provavelmente por que é uma região mais isolada.

O advento das tecnologias de compartilhamento, como a fita cassette, ajudaram a tirar o rádio desta significante posição como um facilitador da difusão de experiências. Talvez não fosse mais tão importante. E, naturalmente, a vanguarda rapidamente desenvolveu, com muito exito, novos seguidores, sempre com um apelo suspeitosamente comercial, na minha visão, mas muito significante no aspecto social. Eu tive sorte de estar na Bay Area e na KPFA em um momento de transição bastante inspirado e inspirador.

ASTRONAUTA - Como você vê o presente e prevê o futuro da música e das artes de vanguarda?

CHARLES SHERE - Eu percebo que já comecei a tocar neste assunto. Há cinquenta anos, muitos achavam que depois do John Cage, depois do Marcel Duchamp, havia pouca coisa mais a ser descoberta. O conselho de Ezra Pound para se "Fazer o novo!" parecia ser impossível de ser obedecido; era a hora de retornar a continentes já descobertos e investigar mais detalhadamente as grandes expansões que os pioneiros haviam alcançado na sua corrida pela descoberta. Naturalmente era dito que Joyce havia finalizado seu livro, mas setenta e cinco anos de publicações seguiram-se desde o surgimento de Finnegans Wake.

Uma substituição para a musica avant garde dos anos 60 tem sido a World Music, que as novas tecnologias e a nova economia globalizada têm facilitado o acesso - ela começou a afetar a música de vanguarda mais enraizada e tradicional por volta de 1970, quando Steve Reich e Philip Glass trouzeram ideias Africanas para o "minimalismo", e agora está cruzando em direção a um nicho de entretenimento comercial de música séria, através de conjuntos como o Kronos Quartet e o Silk Road Project, do Yo Yo Ma.

Mas quanto a prever o futuro, como um grande pensador uma vez bem colocou, se alguém pudesse fazê-lo, não haveria então futuro, haveria?

ASTRONAUTA - E, uma última questão, como você relaciona seus outros interesses com a música e a escrita?

CHARLES SHERE - Eu acho que o grande presente da humanidade é a curiosidade criativa e intelectual. Como lou Harrison gostava de dizer: eu gosto de vários brinquedos, e de um grande playground. Musica; literatura; artes visuais; culinária; viajar; Natureza - quanto mais alguém abrange, mais de perto examina, mais rica a vida desta pessoa é, e mais frequentes e memoráveis os prazeres.

Então eu gasto meu tempo lendo e escrevendo, viajando e contemplando, conversando e escutando, bem como eu fiz nesta última hora, respondendo às suas perguntas. Eu completarei 80 anos de idade neste verão, e eu disfruto da minha idade. Eu em sinto finalmente confortável com a idéia de que eu tenho que começar a entender algumas coisas, ou ao menos compreende-las. Muito disto não pode ser colocado em palavras, naturamente, mas a pessoa continua a tentar.

--

Charles Shere

Interview with Charles Shere

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Charles Shere was born on August 20, 1935, in Berkeley, California, USA. In his childhood he took piano and violin lessons and, a little later on, he also studied woodwind instruments. He studied music and English literature at Chapman College, Santa Rosa Junior College, San Francisco State University, and the University of California at Berkeley, where he graduated com laude in 1960.

In the early '60s, Mr. Shere studied composition with Robert Erickson privately and at the San Francisco Conservatory, and with Luciano Berio at the Mills College. In the mid-sixties, he was the Musical Director of KPFA, in Berkeley, one of the main Radio Stations in broadcasting avant garde music. His works as a composer includes pieces for piano, violin, orchestra (Nightmusic, 1967; Symphony in Three Movements, 1989; concertos for piano, 1964; for violin, 1989), poet speaking in tongues and chamber orchestra (Tongues), soprano and violin (Certain Phenomena of Sound, 1983,) and, among many other pieces, an opera called 'The Bride Stripped Bare by Her Bachelors, Even' (1986,) based on a painting by French-American artist Marcel Duchamp. His books include 'Thinking sound music: the life and work of Robert Erickson', a biography on American composer Robert Erickson; 'Getting There', a memoir covering the period in which we focused to realize this interview; and the newly published 'Venice and the Idea of Permanence', with essays on art, cuisine, music, and other subjects. He also has a restaurant called Chez Panisse with his wife Lindsey Remolif Shere and other partners, and he runs an interesting blog, that you can visit here: http://cshere.blogspot.com.br/

You can also visit Mr. and Mrs. Shere's official website: www.shere.org

My first contact with Charles Shere to make this interview possible was via Facebook, and then via email. I'd like to thank him so much, for giving us some time to answer to my questions. Thank you so much, Mr. Shere! And now, here's the interview:


ASTRONAUTA - Mr. Shere, what are your memories from your first contact with music and arts? And which instrument was your first choice?

CHARLES SHERE - My earliest memory is of my playing violin in a children's orchestra at the San Francisco World's Fair on Treasure Island, which closed, I believe, in 1940 or 1941 (I turned six years old in August 1941). We played a piece called the Kitty-Cat Waltz, which involved glissandi on the E string, and the little girl sitting next to me wet herself during the concert, out of nerves. That's all I recall of that.

At that age I took violin and piano lessons, but from 1942 until 1949 I took no further lessons and had no instrument at hand.

When I started high school, fall 1949, I signed up for instrumental music. My chief instrument was the bassoon, but I also learned the other woodwind except flute, the French horn, and the tuba. There were no stringed instruments at my school.

When I went away to college I played a little bit of French horn, as I never owned a bassoon of my own. I joined the college orchestra, and was asked to play the bassoon parts on the horn, as no bassoon was available. When our concert was finally played, though, a bassoonist was hired, so I was made to play triangle in "Caucasian Sketches," but second horn in a Haydn symphony.

ASTRONAUTA - And how about your first contact with the avant garde music and arts? And which composers most influenced your own compositions?

CHARLES SHERE - First contact: a concert of chamber music by Anton Webern at UC Berkeley, about 1958; a noon concert of music by LaMonte Young and Terry Riley (who were then students at UC Berkeley) at about the same time; a concert of music by John Cage with Cage and Tudor in San Francisco, 1960. It took a few years for me to come to terms with this music, but I immediately found it fascinating. In those years the radio station KPFA broadcast a series called "Contemporary Music in Evoution," curated and produced by Gunther Schuller, and broadcasts from Donaueschingen and other festivals.

Influences on me: Weber; Ives; Satie; Earle Brown; Roman Haubenstock-Ramati; Cage I suppose; Erickson.

ASTRONAUTA - In the early sixties you've studied with Robert Erickson and, later on, you also wrote a book on him, "Thinking Sound Music: The Life and Work of Robert Erickson." How are your memories about the first time you've met Mr. Erickson, and also about your last contact with him? (If your don't mind to remember and tell us about that.)

CHARLES SHERE - I think I was introduced to Erickson by Gernhard Samuel, who was conducting the Oakland Symphony, and from whom I took a few conducting lessons. I recall few specific things about Erickson's teaching, which seemed very indulgent, supportive, gentle. He taught us - I studied in a class at the San Francisco Conservatory, as well as privately - he taugh us to use a circular slide rule to "modulate" among tempi, by changing the beat from e.g. a quarter note to a quarter tied to a triplet eighth, then use that as the new tempo for a quarter, and so on. He also introduced us to the lettering angle and the Rapidograph to allow us to drawn our own staves, which I now recognize liberated us from conventions, an important aspect of his teaching.

After he moved to San Diego, to help set up the music department at UC San Diego, I saw very little of him; but when I began the biography I tried to get down to see him every year or so. He was quite ill his last few years. Shortly before he died he asked when my book was appearing. Not until I finish it, I said. Well, finish it, he said. He never mentioned that another book was also in the works, by another writer.

ASTRONAUTA - And how about Luciano Berio, another of your composition teachers?

CHARLES SHERE - Two anecdotes: I sat down early in his classroom; he was at the blackboard, finishing writing out a gorgeous melody that I took to be J. S. Bach. When I said how beautiful it was, he grinned and said he'd just thought it up. On another occasion he was rehearsing an ensemble in his "Circles," and the harpist complained that his writing was too percussive for the instrument. You don't understand the harp, the player said, the harp is a complex instrument, half female, half male. Well, Berio said contemptuously, looking down at his trousers, I'm all male.

Of Berio's teaching I chiefly remember exercises involving magic squares of numbers, that sort of thing. Not much looking at one's ongoing work and encouraging changes and developments, which Erickson did very well.

ASTRONAUTA - In the mid-sixties you were the Musican Director of KPFA, one of the most important vehicles on promoting the avant garde arts in its time. It was also at that time that the psychedelic rock scene began to call attention to California, mainly to the San Francisco Bay Area. How do you see and describe the importance of KPFA, and how do you relate the radio station to other radio stations of that period of time?

CHARLES SHERE - Briefly put, the importance of KPFA, through the 1960s - I resigned as Music Director in 1967, and left the station completely by 1970 - its importance was in making accessible new and unusual music from other parts of the world. There were few commercial recordings of such music in those days, and of course no Internet. There were also discussions, reviews, and interviews - I interviewed Boulez, for example, and Feldman, and Cage, and Stockhausen, always using such opportunities to dig into their thinking and work to try to comprehend it, and often quite deliberately copying, to get into their hands. (I had been taught to do that in my very conservative theory classes at Chapman College, Los Angeles, in 1953; and besides, in those days before copy machines, since I couldn't afford scores by Webern, for example, I copied them at the library.)

I myself was never attracted to rock, but many of the emerging rock musicians had themselves been exposed to new things by KPFA. I commuted to Mills College for my lessons with Berio, for example, with Phil Lesh and Tom Constanten, before Phil helped form The Grateful Dead - he'd played trumpet in music I wrote for a UC Berkeley production of a Tennessee Williams play (Camino Real) about 1960.

KPFA had a sister station at that time in New York (WBAI) and Los Angeles (KPFK), but it's my impression that the San Francisco Bay Area was more innovative than either New York or Los Angeles, probably because it had been more isolated.

The advent of sharing technologies like cassette tape helped to move radio away from its very significant position as facilitator of the experimental. It was perhaps no longer so important. And of course the avant garde quickly developed very successful new followings, always a little suspiciously commercial to my mind, but very significant socially. I was lucky to be in the Bay Area, and at KPFA, at an inspiring and inspired transitional moment.

ASTRONAUTA - How do you see the present, and foresee the future of the avant garde music and arts?

CHARLES SHERE - I see I've begun to approach that question already. Fifty years ago many thought that after John Cage, after Marcel Duchamp, there was little left to discover. Ezra Pound's admonishment to "Make It New!" seemed impossible to obey; it was time to return to already discovered continents and investigate in greater detail great expanses the pioneers had leapfrogged in their rush to discovery. Of course it was said Joyce had finished the novel, but seventy-five years of publishing has followed the appearance of Finnegans Wake.

One replacement for the musical avant garde of the 1960s has been World Music, which the new technologies and the new global economy have facilitated - it began to affect the more traditionally rooted avant garde by 1970, when Steve Reich and Phil Glass brought African ideas to "minimalism," and it is now crossing into a commercialized entertainment wing of serious music through such performers as the Kronos Quartet and Yo Yo Ma's Silk Road Project.

But as to foreseeing the future, as some great thinker once pointed out, if one could do that, it wouldn't be the future, would it?

ASTRONAUTA - And, one last question, how do you relate your other interests to music and writing?

CHARLES SHERE - I think the greatest gift to humanity was the creative intellectual curiosity. As Lou Harrison liked to say: I like a lot of toys, and a big playpen. Music; literature; visual art; theater; travel; nature - the more one embraces, and the more closely one examines it, the richer one's life is, and the more frequent and memorable its pleasures.

So I spend my time reading and writing, traveling and contemplating, conversing and listening, much as I have done this last hour writing out these answers. I will be eighty years old this summer, and I enjoy my age. I am finally comfortable with the idea that I have begun to understand some things, or at least to comprehend them. Most of it can't be put into words, of course, but one continues to try.

--
Charles Shere

Entrevista com Bernard Szajner

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Bernard Szajner nasceu em Grenoble, cidade situada no sudoeste da França, no dia 27 de junho de 1944. Pioneiro na utilização de lasers e artes visuais aliados à música, Szajner trabalhou como light designer para bandas de rock mundialmente conhecidas como Gong, Magma, e The Who na década de 70. Sentindo a necessidade de uma relação mais próxima entre a música e a iluminação nas apresentações, e percebendo que a maior parte dos músicos não compartilhava destes mesmos sentimentos, Szajner decidiu que criaria sua própria música para preencher e completar suas performances visuais, dando início assim a um conceito completamente novo de espetáculo de Sons e Luzes.


Em 1979, Bernard Szajner lançou (sob a alcunha de Zed) seu primeiro LP, "Visions Of Dune". O álbum era todo baseado em personagens e situações extraídas do famoso livro "Dune", escrito por Frank Herbert em 1965. Em "Visions Of Dune" Szajner utilizou sintetizadores, técnicas de gravação em fita e também convidou alguns músicos para participar - incluindo o cantor da banda Magma, Klaus Blasquiz - para alcançar uma atmosfera sonora que traduzisse o livro em sons e música. No ano seguinte "Some Deaths Take Forever" foi lançado, também utilizando sons sintetizados e contando com músicos convidados durante a gravação. "Superficial Music" foi lançado em Dezembro de 1981 e em 1983 Szajner assinou um contrato com a Island Records, para o lançamento de "Brute Reason" (com o ex-Buzzcocks e ex-Magazine Howard Devoto como vocalista convidado em três faixas.) Na metade dos anos 80, depois de lançar dois EPs doze polegadas ("The Big Scare", de 1984, e "Indécent Délit", de 1986) Bernard Szajner decidiu abandonar a música e dedicar-se exclusivamente às artes visuais.

Na década de 2010, Bernard Szajner decidiu retomar sua carreira na cena musical, depois de mais de 20 anos longe dos palcos e estúdios de gravação. O selo Francês InFiné relançou seu "Visions Of Dune" em 2014, tornando possível que um público maior conhecesse e passasse a apreciar a música de Bernard Szajer. 

Meu primeiro contato com o Sr. Szajner foi via Facebook e, na sequência, por email para realizarmos esta entrevista. Sempre muito gentil e generoso, mesmo estando muito ocupado com seus inúmeros projetos, concertos, exposições e palestras, o Sr. Szajner arrumou um tempo na sua agenda para responder algumas perguntas nesta entrevista!


ASTRONAUTA - Quais são as suas memórias mais remotas sobre música e artes durante a sua infância e adolescência?

BERNARD SZAJNER - Minha primeira percepção musical foi no "gramofone" de uma vizinha, que me fazia ouvir vários discos de 78 rotações, dos quais eu lembro de um, vagamente, com uma canção popular dos anos 60... A letra era mais ou menos assim... "quand allons nous nous marier, nous marier, mon cowboy adoré"... Então, mais tarde, eu descobri alguns artistas franceses, cantoras como Juliette Creco, Edith Piaf e, naturalmente, o cantor Jacquel Brel, que somente mais tarde descobri, era belga... Não foi antes dos anos 70 que eu descobri os músicos "modernos"... Quanto às outras artes, na infância meus pais me levaram algumas vezes ao Opéra onde, encantado pela "mágica" no palco, eu assisti meu primeiro ballet: "le dac des cygnes" e algumas óperas como "A Flauta Mágica" e "Oberon", etc...

ASTRONAUTA - E quanto aos seus primeiros contato com a música e arte de vanguarda e eletrônica? Quais os compositores que mais te influenciaram, no início da carreira?

BERNARD SZAJNER - Originalmente, nos anos 70, eu escutava artistas como Frank Zappa, Terry Riley, King Crimson, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk... E eu trabalhava como designer de Light-Shows "ao vivo" para bandas de rock: Gong, Magma, The Who... Contudo, depois de alguns anos de experiência trabalhando com várias bandas, eu fui me desapontando pela falta de interesse no meu desejo de trabalhar de forma mais próxima e colaborativa, para estabelecer uma "relação íntima" entre a música e as imagens... Então, pensei "se eles não querem trabalhar juntos nesta relação... Vou criar eu mesmo a minha música!" Eu havia trabalhado com compositores contemporâneos como Pierre Henry e Olivier Messiaen, e tinha também descoberto artistas como John Cage, e estes artistas influenciaram minhas composições mais adiante, assim como os músicos de "Rock" me influenciaram...

ASTRONAUTA - Antes uma seguir a carreira como compositor de música eletrônica, você trabalhou como light designer com alguns artistas e bandas, incluindo Gong, Magma, e The Who. Como foi trabalhar com estas bandas, e como foi a transição, para você, de trabalhar como light designer para outros artistas para seguir com sua própria carreira como músico, compositor e light performer?

BERNARD SZAJNER - Como comentei anteriormente, trabalhar com estas bandas era maravilhoso, mas também frustrante! Mas, quando eu decidi "compôr" a música eu mesmo, novos problemas surgiram: como eu iria tocar se eu nem mesmo sabia como encontrar um simples Dó no teclado? Essas dificuldades tornaram-se tão obsessivas que eu esqueci completamente de trabalhar nas imagens e luzes, e fui obrigado a "colocar de lado" a "relação íntima" que eu tanto queria... Rapidamente eu me tornei obcecado pela "composição" e, com dois sintetizadores Oberheim e um sequencer emprestados, comecei a criar centenas de "loops" que eu registrava em um gravador de fita, de dois canais, e depois mixava. Quando estas gravações se tornavam "trilhas", eu convidava alguns músicos "de verdade" para adicionarem partes melódicas que eu "cantarolava" para que eles pudessem conhecer e tocar... Na verdade, antes de criar os loops, eu começava criando os "sons" que evocavam, para mim, personagens ou situações do livro "Dune", que eu estava lendo no período... E o processo todo deu forma ao meu primeiro disco: "Visions Of Dune", porque quando eu "compus" o material, eu estava cheio de "imagens" do livro na minha mente... Eu também parei completamente (progressivamente) de escutar músicas de outras pessoas, porque eu estava tão ocupado e obcecado com minha própria criação... Desde os anos 70 eu nunca ouço música alguma, exceto em raras ocasiões, quando alguns amigos me enviam um link, ou quando eu estou andando na rua e passo perto de um rádio... Ah, uma última coisa... Eu disse anteriormente que eu fui "influenciado" por alguns compositores, sim, eu fui, mas de uma forma abstrata porque, incapaz de "imitar", esta influências aconteceu mais num plano "espiritual"...

ASTRONAUTA - Você é pioneiro no uso de lasers para controlar instrumentos musicais, tendo não só projetado a famosa "laser harp" (The Syringe), no final dos anos 70, como também criado outros equipamentos de som e luz. Você poderia nos contar um pouco sobre estas criações, projetos e invenções?

BERNARD SZAJNER - Ah, a inevitável "laser harp"! Eu tive que imaginar outras maneiras de criar música, que não fossem utilizar somente o teclado, para "toca-las" no palco...Vinde de um contexto de "Light-Show", foi relativamente fácil reverter o processo e "gerar sons a partir da luz"... Eu estava voltando de uma tour na Alemanha com o The Who, onde eu havia utilizado lasers para produzir o primeiro show deles utilizando esta tecnologia... Então eu imaginei o instrumento... Alguns anos mais tarde, eu passei a ficar instatisfeito com o PODER atrativo do instrumento, "demasiadamente dramático, demasiadamente espetacular" (as pessoas nem mesmo ouviam a música)... Eu imainei outros instrumentos e destruí minha laser harp... Hoje em dia, eu fico feliz que tenha consiguido me superar, criando uma nova geração de instrumentos que me obrigam a, fisicamente, "brigar" com eles. Eles tem partes que devem ser puxadas, giradas, batidas, acariciadas, seduzidas, etc, para responder e gerar a música... E isto se completa com o fato de que eu criei um "defeito complicado", aleatoriamente, que me obriga a estar constantemente tenso, constantemente desconfortável, a espera de problemas que às vezes surgem e às vezes não surgem... Isso me obriga a ficar "alerta" em cada apresentação... e, finalmente, eu decidi "retomar" minha idéia ambiciosa de estabelecer uma "relação íntima" entre a música e os elementos visuais... Ao contrário de muitos DJs, que buscam criar uma combinação de música e luz "perfeita", através de softwares precisos, se prendendo somente à parte preguiçosa do cérebro, que se satisfaz com uma relação primária entre "tempo" e "iluminação" (um flash automático a cada batida), eu busco por algo muito mais sutil, uma relação que eu nomeei "sincronicidade" ao invés de "sincronização"... muito como na música Indiana (e na música do Magma) onde alguns músicos parecem estar perdidos em diferentes ritmos e direções musicais, mas que a cada 37 compassos, por exemplo, estão "sincados"... Isto cria uma forma de "exaltação" ou de "felicidade"!... Mas eu levei 40 anos para perceber essa relação "espiritual" com a música...

ASTRONAUTA - No início da sua carreira musical, como era criar música de vanguarda na França, o país que deu ao mundo o Pierre Schaeffer e a musique concrète? Você sente, ou sentiu em algum ponto da sua carreira, alguma espécie de peso por ser um artista de vanguard/música eletrônica na França?

BERNARD SZAJNER - Nenhum peso... Eu levo a vida tão a sério, a ponto de tentar fazer tudo ficar muito leve :)... E eu me considero um "compositor" de luzes, imagens, sons, música, dança, movimentos, emoções... um "faz-tudo" e, como dizemos em Francês: "un saltimbanque"... Contudo, isso não me priva de ser leal ao espírito "avant garde", eu mantenho uma relação com o IRCAM, onde eu realizarei uma conferência sobre minha abordagem incomum, minha relação incomum com os instrumentos musicais, no final do ano, seguido de duas apresentações... Uma sozinho e outra com um compositor de "techno"...

ASTRONAUTA - Quais os instrumentos e equipamentos que você utilizou nas duas primeiras gravações? Você ainda possui alguns dos equipamentos que utilizava nos anos 70 e início dos 80?

BERNARD SZAJNER - Primeiro disco: um gravador de fitas de dois canais e sintetizadores emprestados, faz tempo que não tenho mais! Então eu comprei alguns sintetizadores e sequencers, e também um segundo gravador de dois canais, além de um gravador de quatro canais para as mixagens, também faz tempo que não tenho mais... Mais adiante, eu comprei um enorme sintetizador modular (RSF) e um sequencer digital que quase sempre dava problemas. Comprei também um gravador Teac de 16 canais... Então eu parei de fazer música por vinte anos, e dei meur sintetizadores (exceto um PPG, que eu ainda tenho) para uma escola... Quando eu voltei para a música, quase nada tinha sobrado... Mas a tecnologia MIDI havia chegado neste meio tempo, e também os computadores... Me readaptei a este "mundo novo", recomeçando praticamente do zero, com um Mac portátil e um software "Reason"...

ASTRONAUTA - Você lançou tanto discos solo quanto colaborativos entre 1979 e 1983. Daí assinou com a Island Record e, na sequência, em 1986, decidiu colocar sua carreira musical em segundo plano na sua vida. O que fez você tomar esta decisão, e o que fez você decidir retomar a carreira musical, há alguns anos?

BERNARD SZAJNER - Um dia eu percebi que a música que eu estava criando não "significava" nada mais, não tinha alma, era "vazia", apenas notas, uma depois da outra, música sem sentido (bom nome para um disco :)... Eu tinha que parar! Completamente, sem ressentimentos! Foi o que fiz, e parti para outra forma de criação: "artes visuais", que eu sigo criando hoje em dia, apresentando meu trabalho em galerias de arte... Então, um dia, um rapaz que estava organizando um festival de música perto de Paris me disse: "sua música é a que mais frequenta meu toca-discos, e eu estou produzindo meu último festival, e não consigo imaginá-lo sem você participando"... Então, eu decidi que tocaria no "VISIONSOUND", mesmo "enferrujado" e tendo que reinventar tudo de novo... Eu toquei no festival e fui "mordido pelo inseto" novamante. E aqui estou...

ASTRONAUTA - Quais são seus trabalhos mais recentes e planos para o futuro? 

BERNARD SZAJNER - Quando o selo Francês InFiné decidiu que eu deveria ser redescoberto pelas "crianças" e relançou meu primeiro álbum, "Visions Of Dune", eu já havia composto material para mais quatro discos... Eu vou esperar pela InFiné para disponibilizar estas músicas para o público quando eles acharem conveniente... E, enquanto isso, eu toco algumas destas músicas nas apresentações... Eu não sou mais tão jovem (exceto de espírito :) então, para mim, toda e qualquer oportunidade para tocar é tipo um pequeno milagre, e eu adoro todas estas oportunidades... de verdade!... Então, meus planos são continuar gostando de tocar ao vivo, criar mais alguns dos meus "demônios" (meus instrumentos), e continuar compondo músicas e imagens para sempre!

ASTRONAUTA - Muito obrigado, Mr. Szajner. Eu espero encontra-lo algum dia desses, aqui no Brazil! 

BERNARD SZAJNER - Obrigado, Mister Fabricio Pinguim, eu espero que seu desejo se concretize... Eu adoraria encontra-lo "ao vivo" e tocar (quem sabe com você) no Brazil!

www.szajner.net



Interview with Bernard Szajner

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Bernard Szajner was born in Grenoble, a city located in the southeast of France, on June 27, 1944. A pioneer in the artistic use visual arts as well as lasers, Szajner worked as a light designer for rock bands such as Gong, Magma, and The Who during the seventies. Feeling the need of a more tied relationship between music and lights, and sensing that musicians didn't entirely share the same feelings, Szajner decided to compose his own music to fill (and complete) his visual arts performance, creating an entirely new Light and Sound spectacle.

In 1979 Bernard Szajner released (as Zed) his first LP, "Visions Of Dune", an album based on characters and situations from Frank Herbert's sci-fi novel Dune. In "Visions Of Dune" Szajner used synthesizers, tape recording techniques and also invited some guest musicians - including Magma's singer Klaus Blasquiz - to achieve the sonic atmosphere that translated the book's atmosphere into sounds and music. In the following year, "Some Deaths Take Forever" was released, also using synthetic sounds, and having guests musicians in the line up. "Superficial Music" was released in December 1981, and in 1983 Szajner signed with Island Records and released "Brute Reason" (with ex-Buzzcocks and ex-Magazine member Howard Devoto as guest singer in three songs.) In the mid-eitghties, after releasing two 12-inch EPs more ("The Big Scare", 1984, and "Indécent Délit", 1986) Bernard Szajner decided to abandon music and dedicate himself to visual arts.

In the 2010s Bernard Szajner decided to come back to the music scene, after more than 20 years. French label InFiné re-released his "Visions Of Dune" in 2014, making it possible to a wider and newer audience to know and appreciate Bernard Szajner's music.

My first contact with Mr. Szajner was via Facebook, and then via email for this interview. Always gentle and kind, and even being busy with his projects, concerts, expositions, and lectures, Mr. Szajner found some time in his agenda to answer some questions for this interview!


ASTRONAUTA - What are your earliest memories on music and arts in your childhood and teenage days?

BERNARD SZAJNER - My first perception of music was on a neighbour's "gramophone" where she made me listen to a series of "78 RPM" of which I remember one vaguely, it was a popular song of the '60s... the lyrics were something like... "quand allons nous nous marier, nous marier, mon cowboy adoré"... Then, later, I discovered some French singers like Juliette Greco, Edith Piaf, and of course Jacques Brel whom I discovered later was actually Belgian... It wasn't until the '70s that I discovered "modern" musicians... As for other arts, as a child, my Parents took me a few times to the Opéra where bewildered by the "magic" of the stage I saw my first ballet: "le dac des cygnes" and some Operas like the "Enchanted Flute" and "Obéron", etc...

ASTRONAUTA - What was your first contact with electronic and avant garde music and arts? And which composers and artists influenced you the most, in the early days?

BERNARD SZAJNER - Originally in the '70s, I listened to artists as: Frank Zappa, Terry Riley, King Crimson, Tangerine Dream, Kraftwerk... and I used to create "live" Light-Shows for Rock groups: Gong, Magma, The Who... However after a couple of years of experiencing the work with many groups I became thoroughly disappointed by their lack of interest in my desire to work together in order to establish a "close relationship" between the music and the images... So I thought "is they don't want to work together on this relationship... I will create the music myself"! Having worked also with contemporary music composers such as Pierre Henry and Olivier Messiaes, and having also discovered artists like John Cage, they influenced my later compositions as well as the more "Rock" musicians influenced me...

ASTRONAUTA - Before pursuing a career as an electronic music composer, you worked as the light designer for some artists and bands, including Gong and Magma. How it was to work with those bands, and how it was this transition to you, from working as a light designer for other artists to go on with your own career as a musician and light performer?

BERNARD SZAJNER - As hinted previously, working with these bands was wonderful but also frustrating! But when I decided to "compose" the music myself, new problems arose: how would I play when I couldn't even find a C on a keyboard? These difficulties became so obsessive that I entirely forgot to work on the images and light and was obliged to "put aside" the "close relationship" I had aimed for... I became quickly obsessed with the "composition" and with two borrowed Oberheim synthesizers and one sequencer, started generating hundreds of "loops" that I recorded on a 2-track tape recorder and later assembled by mixing... When these formed "tracks" I invited several "real" musicians to play additional melodic parts which I would "sing" to them and that they would then play... Actually before generating the loops, I began by generating the "sounds" which evoked for me characters or situations of the book "Dune" that I was reading at the time... And this process formed my first record: "Visions Of Dune" because when I "composed" the material, it was done with "images" of the book in my mind... I also entirely (progressively) stopped listening to other people's music because I was just to busy and obsessed with my own creation... Since the '70s I have never listened to any music except for rare occasions when a friend sends me a link or I pass in the street close to a radio... one last thing... I said before that I was "influenced" by some other composer, yes, I was, but in an abstract way, because, uncapable of "imitating", this influence stayed very "spiritual"...

ASTRONAUTA - You're a pioneer in the use of laser to control musical instruments, having designed the famous laser harp (the Syringe) in the late seventies, but you also have other light-sound inventions. Could you tell us a little bit about those inventions?

BERNARD SZAJNER - Ah, the inevitable laser harp! I had to imagine other ways to generate music that playing on a keyboard to be able to "play" on stage... Coming from the "Light-Show" environment, it was quite easy to reverse the process and "generate sounds from light"... I was just back from the German tour of The Who where I had used lasers to produce their first ever light show using lasers... so I imagined the instrument... a couple of years or so, dissatisfied by the "too dramatic and too spectacular" attractive POWER  of the instrument (people wouldn't even listen to the music)... I imagined other instruments and destroyed my laser harp... Nowadays, I am pleased to amuse myself by creating a new generation of instruments that oblige me to physically "fight" with them, they must have parts which should be pulled, twisted, hit, slap, caressed, seduced, etc, to respond and generate the music... This is completed by the fact that I created a random "mischievous defect" which obliges me to be constantly tense, constantly uneasy, expecting problems that sometimes appear and sometimes not... This obliges me to be "sharp" for each performance... and lastly, I have been able to "return" to my ambitious idea of establishing a "close relationship" between music and visuals... Contrary to many DJs approach to creation who are proud to combine music and lighting via "perfect" software, relying on our lazy part of the brain that is satisfied by a primitive relationship between "tempo" and "lighting" (an automatic flash on every beat), I aim for a much more subtle relationship which I name "synchronicity " instead of "synchronization"... much like in Indian music (and Magma's) where some musicians may seem to wander in separate rhythmic and musical directions but once in a while, for example every 37 beats, they will be "in sync"... This creates a form of "elation", of "uplifting"!... but this "spiritual" musical relationship took me about 40 years to imagine...

ASTRONAUTA - In the early days of your musical career, how it was to create avant garde music in France, the country that gave Pierre Schaeffer and the musique concrète to the world? Do you feel, or felt at some point of you career, the weight of being an avant garde/electronic artist in France?

BERNARD SZAJNER - No weight at all... I do take life very seriously to the point of trying to take it very lightly :)... And I consider, myself still as a "composer" of light, images, sounds, music, dance, movement, emotions... therefore a "jack of all trades" and, as we say in French: "un saltimbanque"... This does not prevent me from being faithful to the "avant garde" spirit as I stay in close relationship with the IRCAM, where I will create a conference about my unusual approach to music instruments for the end of the year, followed by two performances... one in solo and one with a "techno" composer...

ASTRONAUTA - What instruments and equipments did you use in your first recordings? Do you still have some of the equipment you used in the seventies and early eighties?

BERNARD SZAJNER - First record: a two-track tape machine and borrowed synths, long gone! Then I bought some synths and sequencers and a second two-track tape machine, plus a four-track to mix, long gone too... Later, I bought some massive modular synths (RSF) and a digital sequencer that would bug quite often, plus a 16-track Teac machine... Then I stopped music for twenty years and offered my synths (except for a PPG that I still have) to a school... When I started music again, I had almost nothing left... But MIDI had arrived in the meantime and computers too... So I re-adapted to this "new world" starting all over again with a small portable Mac and "Reason" software...

ASTRONAUTA - You released both solo and collaborative albums between 1979 and 1983, then signed with Island Records and then, in 1986, you decided to put your musical career on a second place in your life. What made you decide that, and what made you decide to take your musical career back, some years ago?

BERNARD SZAJNER - One day I found out that the music I was producing didn't "mean" anything anymore, it contained no spirit, it was "empty", it was just notes, one after the other, meaningless music (nice title for a record :)... I had to stop! Absolutely, with no regrets! Which I did and went into another form of creation: "visual arts", that I keep creating nowadays, showing my work in art galleries... Then one day, a young guy who was organizing a music festival near Paris said to me: "your music is the most frequent one on my turntable and I am about to produce my last festival and can't imagine that you wouldn't be in it"... So I decided to play in the "VISIONSONIC" festival, being very "rusty" had to reinvent everything... I played there and got bitten by the bug again and here I am...

ASTRONAUTA - What are your most recent works, and plans to the future?

BERNARD SZAJNER - When the French Label InFiné decided that I should be re-discovered by the "kids" and re-issued my first album "Visions Of Dune", I had already composed material for 4 albums... I will wait for InFiné to make this music available to the public as they seem fit... And meanwhile I play some of it already live on stage... I am not so young (except in my spirit :) so, for me, every opportunity to play is a small miracle and I love every one of these opportunities... really!... So my plans are to continue loving to play live, create more of my "demons" (my instruments), and composing music and images forever!

ASTRONAUTA - Thank you, Mr. Szajner. I hope to meet you someday here in Brazil!

BERNARD SZAJNER - Thank you Mister Fabricio Pinguim, I do hope that your wish may be fulfilled... I would love to meet you "live" and play (also maybe with you) in Brazil!

www.szajner.net



Entrevista com Philip Krumm

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Foto: Mike Greenberg, 2001.
Philip Krumm was born on April 7, 1941, in Baltimore, Maryland, USA. His interest in music and arts started when he was a kid, and his parents gave him access to records and books. Mr. Krumm's first instrument of choice was the piano.

In the early 1960, as a high school student, Philip began to produce a series of concerts at McNay Art Institute, in San Antonio, TX, and that included pieces from American composers John Cage, Richard Maxfield, La Monte Young, Terry Riley, and some of his own works. Right after that, Mr. Krumm moved to Ann Arbor, MI, to study at University of Michigan. In Ann Arbor, he joined Robert Ashley, Gordon Mumma and other composers from the ONCE Festival/ONCE Group, one of the most important groups to the avant garde scene in the USA!

In the second half of the 60s, he started a light-show company in Texas, and also managed two rock bands, "Rachel's Children" and "The Children". He also was a close friends with some of the most important rock musicians in the world, Roky Erickson, Stacy Sutherland, and Tommy Hall from The 13th Floor Elevators!

Since 1982 Philip Krumm has run Clipper Ship Book Store, in San Antonio, TX. As you will check out during this interview, some of Mr. Krumm's early electronic works are being prepared to be released in LP, via Idea Records, the same label that released his piece "Formations" in 2003, in CD format.

My first contact with Mr. Krumm was via his official Facebook page, some months ago, when I invited him to this interview, which he kindly accepted! So, here's the interview!

Foto: H. Ramsey Fowler, 1962.
ASTRONAUTA - Olá, Mr. Krumm. Primeiramente, gostaria de dizer que é uma honra muito grande poder contata-lo para esta entrevista. Por favor, você poderia nos contar um pouco sobre a sua infância, primeiros contatos com a música e as artes, e qual foi o seu primeiro instrumento musical de escolha? E quando você percebeu que a música ocuparia uma parte muito importante na sua vida?

PHILIP KRUMM - Eu nasci prematuramente, dois meses antes do esperado e, por conta disso, sofri com uma série de doenças infantis, algumas que se arrastaram por bastante tempo, o que me afastou dos esportes e me levou à música e à literatura, desde muito cedo. Meus pais compraravam para mim alguns discos infantis muito populares naquel época, como "Rusty in Orchestraville", que apresentava os instrumentos de uma orquestra para as crianças, ou "A Trip Through Melodyland", que utilizava muitos clássicos populares como 'The Swan' ou 'In The Hall Of The Mountain King'. Também, ao mesmo tempo, eles me deram meu primeiro disco contendo um trabalho sinfônico: The Firebird Suite, com Artur Rodzynsky e a Orquestra da CBS, pelo que me lembro. Quatro lados, em discos de 12 polegadas e 78 rotações. Eu adorava aquilo acima de tudo, e logo (aos cinco anos de idade, mais ou menos) eu estava dentro da música clássica, do jazz e da música popular, já que tudo estava a minha disposição, fosse em discos ou através do rádio. E o rádio tenha um papel importante, já que era o grande lance quando eu era criança e também nos anos seguintes, e muitos concertos sinfônicos eram emitidos, assim como a Metropolitan Opera, que tinha a mesma idade que eu. Agradeço muito aos grandes pais que tive, pela boa música que me apresentaram desde muito cedo, e também por me darem acesso à leitura de jornais desde os 4 anos, mais ou menos. E também a literatura de qualidade estava ao meu alcance, já que meus pais eram ávidos leitores de grandes livros. Meu primeiro instrumento foi o piano, e eu ainda estou tentando dominar o instrumento.

Algo que merece ser mencionado é sobre o disco "Rusty in Orchestraville": o enredo é que Rusty encontra e tem a oportunidade de conversar com vários instrumentos de uma orquestra. O que eu não sabia na época, mas fiquei emocionado ao descobrir mais tarde, é que a "fala" dos instrumentos foi possível graças à uma das primeiras utilizações de um Ring Modulator. Meu primeiro contato com um Ring Modulator foi somente muitos anos depois, no Ann Arbor Cooperative Center for Electronic Music, que Gordon Mumma e Robert Ashley criaram com muito trabalho. Ele permite que você passe dois diferentes sinais sonoros, que são divididos no aparelho, e chamados de "soma e diferença das frequências", e são recombinados alternadamente. Então, um narrador pode falar em um microfone, e um trumpetista pode tocar sons imitando a fala, e o Ring Modulator vai gerar um "tumpete falante". Eu acho que não existia muito mais o que fazer com Ring Modulators nos anos 40.

Mais tarde, mais ou menos quando eu estava no segundo grau, me tornei assistente de bibliotecário na San Antonio Symphony. Isto foi entre 1958 e 1960, mais ou menos. Eu montava as estantes de partitura para os ensaios, de vez em quando, e tinha a oportunidade de escutar grandes peças divididas em seções: A Quinta Sinfonía de Prokofiev, por exemplo, somente com sopros, metais e percussão, e na semana seguinte somente com cordas, e alguns dias depois com todos os instrumentos, e mais adiante o concerto completo. Você pode aprender muito sobre grandes músicas desta maneira. Também trabalhei na SA Opera, e tive a oportunidade de conhecer muitas das estrelas da época, sendo que George London foi o mais importante para mim. Ele autografou alguns LPs dos ciclos de canções do Mussorgsky, que ele havia recém lançado. Eu pude assisti-lo interpretando "Boris Gudonov" e "As Bodas de Figaro". Com tudo isso, foi um período muito benéfico na minha vida, musicalmente. Eu escutei vários dos grandes clássicos sendo executados ao vivo, naqueles dois ou três anos, e aquilo teve um impacto muito profundo nas minhas experiências musicais. Eu fui um adolescente de muita sorte. 

ASTRONAUTA - E como foi seu primeiro contato com a música de vanguarda e com a música eletrônica?

PHILIP KRUMM - Na verdade, foi tudo mais ou menos na mesma época. Por volta dos 16 anos de idade, eu havia migrado, musicalmente falando, dos pós-românticos para os modernos, e estava profundamente dentro da obra de Schoenberg, adorava as peças atonais e o serialismo. Me parecia que a atonalidade era a evolução natural do extremo cromatismo do final do século XIX e do comecinho do século XX. Era muito natural para mim. E, por volta de 1960, quando Cage eletrificou muitos de nós com seu incrível LP pela Folkways Records, "Indeterminacy: New Aspect of Form in Instrumental and Electronic Music", as coisas fizeram todo o sentido. Nós podíamos ver o futuro se transformando na frente dos nossos olhos, e a criatividade atingiu níveis altíssimos. Como Morton Feldman disse, "Agora que tudo é tão fácil, temos muito trabalho a ser feito."

E seria injusto passar batido pela influência de um dos LPs que eu tive acesso na Louisville Orchestra em 1958, que me apresentou a brilhante "Variations for Orchestra", de Elliott Carter. Para mim, na época, este foi certamente um dos mais importantes trabalhos do século XX, e quando fui estudar em Michigan, eu levei as gravações e partituras desta peça comigo. Ross Lee Finney sabia que era importante e eu, juntamente com meu colegas, que incluíam Roger Reynolds e Bob James, passamos um bom tempo analisando a peça nos seminários de graduação. Nós estudamos todos os quartetos de cordas de Beethoven, algumas pecas de Luigi Dallapiccola e, o melhor de tudo, as Variações para Piano, de Webern.

ASTRONAUTA - No final dos anos 50 e início dos 60, você organizou alguns concertos no McNay Art Institute. Quais foram as melhores (e piores) partes em organizar concertos de vanguarda naquela época? Existem gravações ou filmagens de alguns destes concertos? 

PHILIP KRUMM - Eu olho para trás e vejo aqueles concertos com admiração. Incrível como conseguiamos colocar juntos tantos músicos maravilhosos, todos por volta de vinte anos de idade. Não tenho nenhuma memória específica de algum problema nos concertos. Havia um cara mais velho, chamado Bill Case, que tinha uma loja que vendia toca-discos e aparelhos stereo de alta qualidade. Ele providenciou e operou os gravadores de rolo com as fitas de Richard Maxfield, um dos melhores gravadores da época, embora eu não lembre o nome do fabricante agora. Lembro de Bill Case mencionando que ele havia adocionado "um canal central, a la Klipsch". Maxfield pediu para que retornassemos as fitas, naturalmente, já que não haviam gravações lançadas oficialmente das suas pecas na época. De qualquer forma, o som ficou formidável com as caixas de som do Bill. Foi um grande concerto.

Em outra ocasião que marcou foi quando Robert Sheff executou as Sonatas e Interlúdios para Piano Preparado, de John Cage. Ele era um virtuoso, já naquela época, e tocou aquelas peças maravilhosamente bem. Ele também, eu acredito, estava estreiando uma das pecas de Cage, mas não sabíamos disso na época. E também foi uma honra termos Philip Corner aqui no Fort Sam Houston. Ele trouxe tantas coisas para nós, coisas que não conhecíamos antes, assim como sua esposa Styra, uma violoncelista. Eles eram muito gente boa, e nos ensinaram muito. Nós também realizamos outros concertos no McNay, inclusive uma performance de "Envelope", do Terry Riley. 

ASTRONAUTA - No início dos anos 60 você mudou para Ann Arbor, e juntou-se ao pessoal do ONCE Festival/ONCE Group (o ONCE foi um dos grandes divisores de águas na história da música de vanguarda Norte-Americana, lançando as sementes para toda uma nova geração de compositores na época.) Qual foi o seu primeiro contato com os artistas baseados em Ann Arbor? E como vocie relaciona a cena baseada em Ann Arbor com os concertos que você realizava no McNay Art Institute?

PHILIP KRUMM - Eu havia feito músicas para algumas produções no Fort Sam Houston Little Theatre, em 1960 ("Taming of the Shrew", "Dracula") e o diretor era um homem chamado Bill Larson. Eu me dava bem com ele (já que não era ator), mas os atores tinham uma visão muito, muito diferente dele. Enfim, ele era um dos grandes nomes no departamento de música na University of Michigan, e tinha feito cursos com Ross Lee Finney, e sugeriu que eu enviasse algumas músicas para ele. E eu fiz isso, e o Ross Finney respondeu muito positivamente ("Eu não sei o que iremos fazer com você, mas o queremos aqui!") Meus pais pediram emprestado $300 a um tio rico (que pediu para que eles pagassem em prestações) e logo eu estava em um trem para Michigan. Eu cheguei lá com $39 nos meus bolsos. O coordenador da escola de música interessou-se pelo meu caso, e eles me enviaram para morar na Nakamura Co-op, um velho prédio de dois andares que servia como moradia conjunta para estudantes de baixa renda. Era um lugar legal, com várias pessoas espertas e várias idéias politicas que me interessaram. 

O Finney me disse para procurar pelo Robert Ashley e pelo Gordon Mumma, o que eu fiz. Eles tinham opiniões diferentes a respeito de Finney, que era um tanto quanto conservador, na visão deles (mesmo Finney sendo uma espécie de serialista). Gordon o chamava de "Horse Pee Funny". Ashley era mais discreto. De qualquer forma, quando eles viram o que eu havia realizado com os concertos no McNay, eu fui muito bem recebido na turma, e comecei a fazer música no novíssimo Cooperative Center for Electronic Music. E também pude me apresentar nos ONCE Festivals de 1962 e 63. No último Festival, eu me apresentei sob direção de John Cage, executando "Sapporo", de Toshi Ichiyanagi, uma peça que eu já havia tocado umas três vezes. E, naturalmente, também houve uma maravilhosa apresentação da minha peça "Music for Clocks", pela Once Chamber Orchestra. Eu também apresentei uma peça teatral minha chamada "May 1962".

ASTRONAUTA - Em 1961 você participou de uma performance da Yoko Ono, no Carnegie Hall, em NYC. Quais são as suas lembranças do evento, e da Yoko Ono como pessoa?

PHILIP KRUMM - Eu estive com a Yoko apenas durante a performance, por volta de uma hora mais ou menos, mas ela foi muito legal comigo. Ela estava morando com Tony Cox na época, que também era um cara muito legal, com uma personalidade bacana e um ótimo senso de humor (e, ocasionalmente, alguns remédios excelentes). Ele me visitou em Ann Arbor uma vez, inclusive. Eu estive no apartamento do La Monte Young (ele me cumprimentou de dentro da sua banheira), e sua namorada na época era a maravilhosa poeta Diane Wakoski. Ela foi muito bacana e legal comigo, e me levou para andar por NYC, para conhecer pessoas, e foi assim que fui parar no concerto da Yoko. Isto foi no final de semana de Ação de Graças, em 1961. A Diane me apresentou à Yoko, que me perguntou se eu gostaria de participar do concerto. Meu grande amigo de muitos anos, George Brecht, estava lá também e nós, juntamente com o inacreditável saxofonista tenor Terry Jennings, providenciamos a música de fundo para as leituras de poesia da Yoko. Ela sentou-se num vaso sanitário e leu suas próprias poesias. George e eu tínhamos latas amarradas com cordas nos nossos tornozelos, e fazíamos vários sons de vozes, e Terry tocava notas longas no seu saxofone. De vez em quando o Tony Cox, de dentro do banheiro do camarim, acionava a descarga e captava com um microfone, e então enormes ruídos de descarga eram emitidos pelos grandes alto-falantes no palco. Era maravilhoso. E, naturalmente, naquele mesmo final de semana eu fui à pequena casa de Cage, em Stony Point, onde ele me deu uma cópia de "Silence", que havia sido recém publicado. Ele pegou uma cópia de dentro de uma caixa, que estava dentro do seu carro, desembrulhou o papel marrom que envolvia o livro, e me deu de presente. Quando eu perguntei se ele escreveria algo no livro para mim, ele disse: "Escrever algo? Mas eu já escrevi o livro todo!" Provavelmente ele tinha o melhor senso de humor entre todos os compositores que eu conheci. Eu dava risadas com ele a maior parte do tempo que estive por lá. Um grande cara, de verdade.

ASTRONAUTA - Antes de juntarem-se ao Grateful Dead, o Tom Constanten e o Phil Lesh eram artistas ativos no campo da música de vanguarda, como alguns outros artistas que migraram (ou que fizeram a ligação) entre a cena vanguardista e a emergente cena psicodélica-pop-rock. E, naturalmente por conta de algumas das principais (ou algumas das mais famosas) bandas de rock psicodélico vieram de San Francisco, a cidade parece ser uma espécie de ponto de intersecção entre a vanguarda e o rock. Qual a sua relação com a cena de vanguarda de San Francisco e a cena eletrônica de lá, no início dos anos 60? Você tinha bastante contato com os compositores de San Francisco e da região?

PHILIP KRUMM - Larry Austin era o meu contato com os músicos da Costa Oeste. Eu tive muita sorte de poder trabalhar com várias pessoas maravilhosas, incluindo (Dary) John Mizelle e também Art e Pat Woodbury (que se apresentava como "Billie Alexander"). Eles e alguns outros constituiam o New Music Ensemble (NME), e fizeram uma excelente estréia da minha peça "Sound Machine". Eu estava em Davis por seis meses, somente, e então as circunstâncias me fizeram retornar ao Texas. Foi um período muito difícil para mim, mas os músicos de Davis eram maravilhosos. Eu fui a San Francisco com alguns amigos, para assistir a estréia de "Tarot", do Morton Subotnick, uma peça com música e projeções. Foi muito agradável, e quando reencontrei-o, anos depois, ele disse que a havia abandonado. Eu também tive a sorte de ir a um concerto do Muddy Waters, no Avalon. Aconteciam concertos de rock importantes na UC Davis, que eu também tive a sorte de assistir: The Jefferson Airplane, Big Brother and The Holding Company, e The Grateful Dead, todos eles realizaram concertos muito legais. Minha única vez, eu acho, fazendo parte de uma dança com algumas centenas de pessoas. Fantástico.

ASTRONAUTA - E sobre a cena de rock no Texas? Você gerenciou algumas bandas de rock por um tempo, e também teve uma empresa que prestava serviços de iluminação nos anos 60, correto? Qual era a ligação entre as artes de vanguarda e o rock psicodélico no Texas naquela época? Você tinha contato com o Roky Erickson e o Tommy Hall (dos 13th Floor Elevators) e outras bandas de rock dos anos 60? E sobre outra banda texana de rock psicodélico, com influências da música de vanguarda, o Red Krayola do Mayo Thompson, você tinha contato com eles?

PHILIP KRUMM - Eu conheci os 13th Floor Elevators bem no comecinho, logo que eles lançaram seu primeiro 45 rotações com "Tired to Hide" e "You're Gonna Miss Me", mais ou menos em 1964. Eles eram todos pessoas muito espertas e interessantes, e eu mantive contato com eles até o final da banda, ocasião que eu não só estava presente para ver, mas também participei, digamos assim. Por volta de 1968 - um ano muito importante para quase todos - o Roky tinha ido muito longe no consumo de ácido e outras coisas que ele havia consumido durante os '60s. Um dos meus vários trabalhos voluntários na HemisFair - a feira mundial de San Antonio, que estava ocorrendo na época - era organizar os concertos no Pavilhão da Juventude, e nós realizamos vários concertos ótimos, incluíndo os Elevators. Mas no outro lado da rua onde ficava a HemisFair havia uma banda de rock que tinha um local para shows em Houston. O gerente era - em primeiro lugar - um cara rude e desagradável, que tratava todos os músicos como se fossem merda de gato, achava que eles deveriam ser colocados nos seus devidos lugares. Os Elevators estavam escalados para tocar lá, numa noite de sábado, mas ninguém nem sequer comentou nada sobre isso comigo. O Roky tinha ficado amigo de um veterano da guerra do Vietnam, Charlie Powell, um cara maravilhoso, mas que havia ficado - como diziamos na época - Traumatizado de Guerra, hoje em dia o termo usado é Transtorno de Estresse Pós-traumático. Ambos estavam muito lesados para comunicarem-se efetivamente com a maioria de nós, mas davam-se muito bem entre eles dois. Eu tinha um carro funerário Cadillac na época, que eu trouxe da California em 1966. O Charlie e o Roky apareceram e pediram se eu podia emprestar o carro para eles irem a Austin. Eu disse "claro", e lá foram eles. 

Alguns minutos depois, o Tommy Hall apareceu, procurando pelo Roky. Eles estavam escalados para se apresentarem no clube de rock, e o gerente já estava de mal humor e, naquela altura, Roky já estava a caminho de Austin no meu carro funerário. O Tommy disse, "sem o Roky estamos ferrados." Então eu fui com o Tommy até o bar de rock e vi ele aguentar os xingamentos do gerente de cabeça quente e abusado, feliz em colocar tudo para fora e insultar a banda de rock mais extraordinária e legal que o Texas já produziu. Eu tive a oportunidade de reencontra-lo depois, naquele mesmo ano. Ele disse que se sentia mal pela maneira que ele lidou com a banda, mas que sua experiência lidando com bandas por anos e anos o fazia vê-los como ovelhas estúpidas.

 Aquele foi o fim dos concertos deles juntos. Eu ouvi que um show dos Elevators aconteceria em Ingram um ano ou mais tempo depois, no Old Dog Saloon, mas quando eu cheguei lá era só o Roky com seus amigos, não tinha nenhum Elevators por lá. Eu, educadamente, disse que aquilo não era legal, que ele não devia fingir que era os Elevators. Eu acho que ele jea sabia disso, então eu só reforcei um pouquinho mais. Ele nunca mais repetiu aquilo. Eu devo dizer também que, não importava o quão doidão ele estava, ou sóbrio, ele sempre lembrava de mim e do meu nome, o que era sempre algo maravilhoso e surpreendente para mim. Ele sempre foi, e permanece, um cara legal.  

Na verdade, o membro dos Elevators que manteve maior contato comigo, por mais tempo, e passou mais tempo conversando comigo sobre eles, e sobre as suas experiências, foi o Stacy Sutherland. Ele era um cara muito esperto e literato, e tinha uma maneira muito legal de analisar toda a história pela qual eles haviam passado durante os turbulentos anos 60. Ele foi o responsável pelo último disco, "Bull of the Woods", organizando tudo; ele foi o responsável pela maior parte do trabalho de produção no disco, e escreveu a maior parte do material. Ele tinha me prometido trazer as letras em um papel, já que as palavras no disco eram difíceis de serem entendidas mas - como muitas pessoas temiam que fosse acontecer - sua esposa atirou nele e o matou, antes que ele pudesse cumprir com a promessa. Foi uma perda estúpida e triste, de um cara legal e um grande amigo. Ele está enterrado no Center Point.

Respondendo a sua pergunta, eu não conhecia o pessoal dos Krayola, mas gostava do álbum deles. Eu conhecia várias bandas da época, Bubble Puppy, Jay Hoyer, mais do que eu consigo lembrar agora. Foi um período maravilhoso da minha vida.

Naturalmente eu gerenciei (digamos assim) duas bandas de rock excelentes, uma chamada "Rachel's Children", e a outra chamada "The Children". Exceto por um baterista que eventualmente participou das duas bandas, elas não eram relacionadas, e já haviam sido batizadas antes de me encontrarem. Os Rachel's Children eram artistas genuínos, músicos brilhantes e muito criativos, mas de alguma maneira ainda faltava experiência profissional. Quando eles não estavam a fim de tocar, eles não tocavam. Mas raramente eles pegavam shows que não fossem fazer. Já os The Children, por outro lado, eram totalmente dedicados e podiam relizar concertos mesmo que estivessem muito doentes. Mais tarde eles se juntaram com Lou Adler, que lhes conseguiu um álbum em uma grande gravadora ("Rebirth", pela Atco, relançado em CD pela Gear Fab.) Eles mereceram todo o reconhecimento que tiveram, e muito mais. Dois deles morreram cedo, Steve Perron e Bill Ash, ambos caras maravilhosos e ótimos músicos. E a cantora, Cassell Webb, era e permanece muito bonita e talentosa. Os Rachel's Children também fizeram gravações maravilhosas. Eles se juntaram ao famoso autor William F. Brammer ("Billy"), que admirava muito a banda. Um dia ele disse ao guitarrista Don Harding (que também morreu jovem) que ele (Brammer) era a única pessoa que ele conhecia acima dos 50 anos de idade que ainda injetava speed. Três semanas ou um pouco mais depois disso, ele estava morto, e as gravações desapareceram com ele. Eu conheci o Bill Brammer enquanto trabalhava na HemisFair, onde ele tinha um cargo no alto escalão. Ele teve um best-seller alguns anos antes disso, um livro chamado "The Gay PLace", que não tinha nada a ver com gay, e sim era uma estória ficticia sobre Lyndon Johnson. Eu notei que depois da morte de Bill, os agentes literários re-imprimiram "The Gay Place" em uma edição de capa simples, com o nome alterado para "Billy Lee Brammer". Isso me incomodou muito. Em nenhum momento durante os dois anos e meio que eu convivi com ele, ninguém o chamou de "Billy Lee". Ele publicou o livro como "William F. Brammer". Eu acredito que o nome "Billy Lee" foi uma jogada publicitária para fazê-lo soar como mais "texano". Mas é um ótimo livro, sem sombra de dúvida. E a morte de Bill foi uma perda muito triste para todos nós, que o conhecíamos. 

Minha empresa de iluminação se chamava "Light/Sound Development", e contava com muitos amigos queridos, como o David King, um artista visual talentoso, Richard Moore, Pat Finch e outros. Eu havia visto os lightshows no Avalon e no Fillmore, mas minha maior influência era bem anterior, o Ann Arbor Space Theatre, criado por Milton Cohen. Ashley, Mumma e eu haviamos feito músicas para aqueles lightshows e projeções maravilhosos. Quando eu voltei do Michigan para o Texas, imediatamente (em 1963) comecei a construir um sistema de projeção giratório baseado no de Milton, e tive a ajuda de um dos gênios nascidos em San Antonio, Charlie Winans. Nós juntamos um fabuloso toca-discos, coberto com espelhos fixos e móveis, sistemas de prismas, e um globo de espelhos meticulosamente construído no meio. O toca-discos era cercado por filmes e projetores de slides, e várias outras fontes de projeção de luz, todas apontadas para o toca-discos, e o efeito da luz se espalhando por qualquer ambiente era muito psicodélico e original. Mas nós também utilizavamos retro-projetores, e consegíamos produzir magníficos lightshows. Nós trabalhamos na abertura do primeiro clube psicodélico de San Antonio, "The Mind's Eye", com shows dos os 13th Floor Elevators e os Rachel's Children. Mas a maior conquista foi um concerto dos Rachel's Children mais tarde, no Pavilhão da Juventude da HemisFair. Nós tínhamos muito mais equipamento à nossa disposição: sete ou oito retro-projetores, quatro projetores de filmes, um projetor de slides stereo e também alguns comuns, e nosso sistema de iluminação e espelhos central. A banda estava maravilhosa naquela noite e a nossa equipe de lightshow estava no auge, e aquele foi um dos mais surpreendentes eventos musicais-culturais-tecnológicos de alteração de realidade coletiva, onde todos os participantes estavam, pelo menos por alguns minutos, totalmente juntos em uma experiência transformadora. Quando acabou, o supervisor do Pavilhão da Juventude me olhou com uma expressão espantada e disse: "Esta foi uma das coisas mais surpreendentes que eu já vi!" E tinha sido mesmo, todos sabíamos. Foi um daqueles eventos que tornam a vida na música e nos concertos incrível, principalmente porque acontecem muito raramente.

Eu não posso deixar estas memórias da música no Texas sem mencionar a incrível genialidade de Jerry Hunt. Nós nos conhecemos no 'Pataphysics Festival, do Roger Shattuck, no final da primavera ou início do verão de 1963. Eu tinha conhecido o Roger algum tempo antes, quando ele havia me convidado para jantar na casa dele, com sua esposa, e eu dei-lhe uma cópia da minha composição para tabuleiro de jogos "Lincoln Center". Mais tarde, ele me convidou para o Festival e eu apresentei uma peça minha com Gordon Mumma, "Four Part Music". Eu conheci o Jerry depois da sua surpreendente performance, e nós nos tornamos amigos na hora. Uma experiência de aproximação que tivemos foi uma viagem muito cansativa que fizemos no seu Renault Dauphine (com o banco traseiro cheio de equipamentos eletrônicos) até a Brandeis University, onde realizamos um concerto com o Alvin Lucier. O concerto foi magnifico, mas a viagem foi terrível, conto maiores detalhes em outra ocasião. Jerry e eu realizamos vários outros concertos juntos, bem como um programa de TV para a KLRN (em 1964), que foi emitido simultâneamente pelo rádio, e eu mantive contato com ele até um pouco antes do seu suicídio. Foi uma perda dolorosa e eu ainda posso ouvir sua voz muito particular, que ouvi em tantas ligações telefônicas longas e interessantes nos anos que tivemos contato.

ASTRONAUTA - E como foi seu primeiro contato com os Sintetizadores de Música Eletrônica, especialmente com o Sintetizador Moog?

PHILIP KRUMM - O primeiro sintetizador que eu tive a oportunidade de utilizar foi um pequeno Buchla, na UC Davis. Não tinha teclado, apenas plugs e cabos conectando os módulos. Eu produzi alguns ritmos simples, gravei eles, e acabei vendendo-os, cobrando muito barato obviamente, para uma agência que fazia comerciais da Volkswagen. Eu escutei alguma coisa deste material no rádio, algumas vezes. Eu utlilizei, sem pedir autorização, alguns sintetizadores na Trinity University, aqui em San Antonio: um deles era um Electro-Comp, que tinha um teclado impresso na tampa do sintetizador. Jerry Hunt tinha alguns filtros da Moog no seu estúdio, que eu utilizei algumas vezes. Eu conheci o Bob Moog quando a Alamo Piano Company o trouxe para uma palestra/demonstração, provavelmente em 1969. Mas eu nunca utilizei um Sintetizador Moog propriamente dito. Eu toquei em um concerto (em 1967?), tocando com um grupo de rock Cristão, num lance chamado "Truth of Truths". Eles me deixaram ficar com um Sintetizador ARP por cerca de seis semanas antes do concerto. Eu gravei muito material com ele, e a maior parte do que gravei eu ainda tenho. O ARP era provavelmente o meu sintetizador preferido, entre todos os sintetizadores que eu utilizei. Como eu não era um devoto, propriamente dito, do cristianismo, o concerto foi um desafio para mim; mas tudo que eu tinha que fazer eram alguns sons eletrônicos de fundo para a voz de "Deus" de vez em quando. "Deus" era interpretado por um conhecido pastor Batista de San Antonio, chamado Buckner Fanning. 

ASTRONAUTA - E quais as suas lembranças de quando conheceu e estudou com Karlheinz Stockhausen na UC Davis, na metade dos anos 60?

PHILIP KRUMM - Stockhausen foi um ponto de luz em um período difícil para mim. Era verão de 1966. Eu havia sido convidado para a UC Davis por um proeminente compositor que era do corpo docente lá. Um amigo e eu dirigimos até a California no meu Corvair, que precisava ficar sempre na terceira marcha, com a caixa de câmbio fixada com um cano de bicicleta preso nos assentos. A viagem foi terrível, mas quando eu cheguei lá e descobri que não teria nenhuma assistência do departamento de música, as coisas ficaram muito piores. Eu encontrei com o Stockhausen quando o Bob Ashley estava visitando o Mills College. Ele gostou de mim, eu acho, e me convidou para almoçar com ele. Nós concersamos principalmente sobre a minha experiência em Ann Arbor alguns anos antes, e caminhamos por um tempo, falando sobre os compositores que eu havia conhecido. Ele me disse que não se importaria se eu frequentasse suas palestras, já que havia viajado de tão longe e não teria nenhum apoio da escola.

Eu dei um jeito de frequentar algumas de suas palestras antes que tive que retornar ao Texas. Ele falou sobre suas principais composições, e sobre o processo de como as realizou, principalmente as pecas "Carre" e "Kontra-Punkte"; "Mikrophonie 1" havia sido recém lançada em LP pela Columbia, e ele falou sobre como realizou aquela grande peça. Então, tempo e dinheiro começaram a diminuir e eu tive que voltar para casa. Eu o vi em Clear Lake City alguns anos depois, em uma performance da peça "Sirius", com Markus no trumpete, uma apresentação magnífica. Eu fui falar com ele depois do concerto, e disse-lhe que havia dirigido de San Antonio até Clear Lake City para vê-lo. Ele apertou minha mão com força e disse, "Você é um anjo!"

ASTRONAUTA - Na sua entrevista com Josh Ronsen você mencionou que existem gravações de algumas das suas peças, apresentadas no ONCE Festival e no ONCE Friends, que não foram lançadas no Box Set que saiu em 2003 pela New World Records. Você planeja lançar estas gravações?

PHILIP KRUMM - Há uma gravação da peça que eu consideraria minha opus um, caso eu utilizasse opus para ordenar minhas pecas, coisa que eu não faço. Chama-se "Paragenesis", para dois violinos e piano. Foi apresentada e gravada em um concerto no "Once Friends", por Karin Fierce, Lana Nail e Larry Leitch. Eu acho que será lançada algum dia. Também, o selo New Albion gravou o concerto com a estréia da minha peça "Banshee Fantasia", que foi feito sob encomenda da Bay Area Pianists em 1996, em homenagem ao centésimo aniversário de Henry Cowell. A peça foi executada por "Blue" Gene Tyranny entre duas versões diferentes de "The Banshee", do Cowell. Eu acho que este álbum será lançado algum dia também. Enquanto escrevo, a Idea Records está preparando um LP com alguns dos meus primeiros trabalhos eletrônicos, um dos quais foi realizado no estúdio do Gordon Mumma, em Ann Arbor. A Idea faz trabalhos muito bonitos, e lançou em CD "Formations", um trabalho que eu compus utilizando mapas astrais, em 1962. A belíssima gravação de "Blue" Gene estava em péssimo estado antes de ser tranferida para o formato digital, mas o resultado me fez cair para trás quando eu ouvi pela primeira vez a master para o disco. Na minha casa existem algumas fitas com alguns dos meus primeiros trabalhos, bem como partituras para "Taming of the Shrew", uma sonata para piano e flauta ("Autumn Sonata"), que foi escrita de modo que o flautista pudesse acompanhar ele mesmo, e também tenho em casa algumas das minhas primeiras pecas orquestrais. Não tenho idéia do estado que estão as fitas. Espero que elas possam ser propriamente copiadas algum dia. O selo Opus One lançou a gravação de Scott Vance para minha peça Bass Clarinet Concerto, sob direção do grande Barney Childs. Também há uma gravação ótima feita por Martin Walker, que será lançada algum dia, eu espero. E eu tenho uma fita com o concerto que Jerry Hunt e eu fizemos com Alvin Lucier e com a Brandeis Orchestra em 1963. Seria um material interessante para ser lançado algum dia, como documento histórico.

ASTRONAUTA - Bom, é isto, Mr. Krumm. Muito obrigado pelo seu tempo, e por aceitar meu convite para esta entrevista!

PHILIP KRUMM - Obrigado, Fabricio. Eu sou muito grato a você, por esta oportunidade de solidificar algumas lembrancas importantes. Eu espero que não tenha muito trabalho com a tradução; provavelmente haverão alguns momentos problemáticos. Gostaria de ver o quanto estas breves lembrancas históricas serão de interesse para alguém, no futuro.

Philip K.

Interview with Philip Krumm

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Photo: Mike Greenberg, 2001.
Philip Krumm was born on April 7, 1941, in Baltimore, Maryland, USA. His interest in music and arts started when he was a kid, and his parents gave him access to records and books. Mr. Krumm's first instrument of choice was the piano.

In the early 1960, as a high school student, Philip began to produce a series of concerts at McNay Art Institute, in San Antonio, TX, and that included pieces from American composers John Cage, Richard Maxfield, La Monte Young, Terry Riley, and some of his own works. Right after that, Mr. Krumm moved to Ann Arbor, MI, to study at University of Michigan. In Ann Arbor, he joined Robert Ashley, Gordon Mumma and other composers from the ONCE Festival/ONCE Group, one of the most important groups to the avant garde scene in the USA!

In the second half of the 60s, he started a light-show company in Texas, and also managed two rock bands, "Rachel's Children" and "The Children". He also was a close friends with some of the most important rock musicians in the world, Roky Erickson, Stacy Sutherland, and Tommy Hall from The 13th Floor Elevators!

Since 1982 Philip Krumm has run Clipper Ship Book Store, in San Antonio, TX. As you will check out during this interview, some of Mr. Krumm's early electronic works are being prepared to be released in LP, via Idea Records, the same label that released his piece "Formations" in 2003, in CD format.

My first contact with Mr. Krumm was via his official Facebook page, some months ago, when I invited him to this interview, which he kindly accepted! So, here's the interview!

Photo: H. Ramsey Fowler, 1962.
ASTRONAUTA - Hi Mr. Krumm. First, I'd like to tell you that it's a great pleasure and honor to contact you. Please, can you tell us a little bit about your childhood days, early contact with music and arts, and which was your first musical instrument of choice? And how did you first realized that music was really part of your life?

PHILIP KRUMM - I was two months premature and it resulted in a number of infant ailments, some of which dragged on for a while, which made me non-athletic and drawn to music and literature, quite early. My parents bought me popular kid record albums of the day, like "Rusty in Orchestraville", which introduces kids to the instruments of the orchestra, or "A Trip Through Melodyland", which utilized many popular classics, like 'The Swan', or 'In The Hall Of The Mountain King'. Also, simultaneously, they gave me my first symphonic work: The Firebird Suite, with Artur Rodzynsky and the CBS Orchestra, as I recall. Four sides of twelve-inch 78rpm records. I loved it most of all, and soon (age 5 or so) very into classical, jazz and popular music since all were available to me either on records or radio. And radio played a very big part, since it was a big deal when I was a kid and for many years afterward, and lots of symphony concerts were broadcast as well as the Metropolitan Opera, which was about the same age I was. Thanks to the remarkable parents I was drenched in good music early on, and I was able to read the newspaper by 4 or so, so lots of good reading was around for me as well, since my parents were active readers with lots of great books. My first instrument was the piano, and I'm still trying to get the hang of it.

One thing worth mentioning is in regard to the "Rusty in Orchestraville" recording: The story is that Rusty meets and is able to talk to various instruments of the orchestra. What I didn't know then but was delighted to discover later on is that the talking instrument effects were one of the first uses of the ring modulator. My first contact with one was much later at the Ann Arbor Cooperative Center for Electronic Music, which Gordon Mumma and Robert Ashley had slowly created. It allows one to input two different sound sources which it splits into what are called "sum and difference frequencies" and recombines them alternately. Thus, a reader can speak dialogue into a microphone, and a trumpet player can play imitative vocalized-trumpet sounds, and the ring modulator will give you a talking trumpet. I guess there wasn't a lot more to do with ring modulators in the 1940s.

Later on, by high-school or so, I became assistant to the librarian for the San Antonio Symphony. This would be during 1958-60. I set up the stands for rehearsals from time to time and got to hear great pieces in sectional: the Prokofiev 5th Symphony, for instance, with just the winds, brass and percussion, later in the week with just strings, and once with everybody, and then the actual concert. You can get to know a lot of great music this way. Worked at the SA Opera, too, and got to meet many of the stars of the day, most importantly for me, George London. He signed the several LPs of Mussorgsky song cycles that he had recently released. I got to see him do "Boris Gudonov" and "The Marriage of Figaro". All in all, a very musically beneficial time of my life. I heard lots of great classical music played live and up close for two or three years, and it had profound effects on my sense of musical experience. I was a truly lucky teenager.

ASTRONAUTA - And how about your first contact with the avant garde and electronic music?

PHILIP KRUMM - Actually, this was during some of the same times. By 16 or so I'd moved musically through the post romantics to the moderns, heavily into Schoenberg right away, loved atonality and serialism. It seemed to me that atonality was the natural evolution of the extreme chromaticism of the late 19th and a tiny bit of the 20th century. It felt quite natural to me. And by 1960, when Cage electrified so many of us when his incredible "Indeterminacy: New Aspect of Form in Instrumental and Electronic Music" LPs came out on Folkways Records, it was all over. We could see the future transformed before our eyes and creativity went wild. Like Morton Feldman said, "Now that everything's so easy, there's so much to do."

And, it would be unfair to forget the influence of one of the LPs I got from the Louisville Orchestra in 1958 which brought me Elliott Carter's brilliant "Variations for Orchestra". It was certainly one of the most important 20th-Century works for me in those days, and when I went to Michigan to school I took the recordings and miniature score with me. Ross Lee Finney know it was important and I and my fellow students, which included Roger Reynolds and Bob James, spent one session analyzing it in the graduate seminars. We studied all the Beethoven string quartets, some Luigi Dallapiccola, and best of all, Webern's Piano Variations.

ASTRONAUTA - In the late 50s and early 60s you organized concerts at McNay Art Institute. What was the best (and the worse) part of organizing avant garde concerts at that time? Are there any recording or films from some of those concerts?

PHILIP KRUMM - I look back on those concerts with amazement. It seems incredible that we were able to pull together such wonderful musicians, all in their late teens and early twenties. The concerts went by in a blur and at the present time I have no particular memory of anything problematical. There was a great older guy then named Bill Case who had a high-dollar store selling quality phonographs and stereos. He provided, and operated, the reel-to-reel player for Richard Maxfield's tapes, one of the best of the day, though I forget at the moment the brand. I remember Bill Case mentioning the addition of a "bridged center channel a la Klipsch." Maxfield required that we return the tapes, naturally enough, since there were no recordings of his works at that time. Anyway, the sound was terrific with Bill's speakers. It was a great concert all around.

Another day that stood out was Robert Sheff performing the Sonatas and Interludes for Prepared Piano by John Cage. He was already pretty virtuosic by then and he knocked out those wonderful pieces very smartly. He also, I believe, premiered a Cage work, though we didn't know it at the time. And it was an honor to have Philip Corner stationed here at Fort Sam Houston. He brought so much to us that we hadn't known before, as did his wife Styra, a cellist. They were great folks who taught us a lot. We did other concerts at McNay too, including a performance of Terry Riley's "Envelope".

ASTRONAUTA - In the early 60s you moved to Ann Arbor, and joined the ONCE Festival/ONCE Group staff (ONCE was a great watershed in the USA avant garde music history, sowing the seeds for a whole generation of composers at that time.) What was your first contact with the Ann Arbor-based avant garde artists? And how do you relate the Ann Arbor-based scene to the concerts that you organized at the McNay Art Institute?

PHILIP KRUMM - I'd done music for some productions at the Fort Sam Houston Little Theatre in 1960 ("Taming of the Shrew", "Dracula") and the director was a man named Bill Larson. I got along fine with him (not being an actor) but actors had a very, very different take on him. Anyway, he'd been a music major at the University of Michigan and had taken courses with Ross Lee Finney and suggested that I send some of my music to him. I did so, and Ross Finney responded very pleasantly ("I don't know what we're going to do with you but we want you here!"). My parents borrowed $300 from a rich uncle (who required that they repay him in installments) and I was soon on a train to Michigan. I got there with $39 in my pocket. The Dean of the music school took an interest in my case, and they set me up for residency at Nakamura Co-op, an old two-storey building which was cooperative housing for low-income students. It was a great place, with lots of smart guys, and lots of lively political ideas which I immediately took to.

Finney told me to look up Robert Ashley and Gordon Mumma, which I did. They had differing opinions on Finney, who was way too conservative (even though he was a serialist of sorts) for them. Gordon called him "Horse Pee Funny". Ashley was more discreet. Anyway, when they saw what I'd managed to do with the McNay concerts, I was welcomed into the fold and began making music at the brand-new Cooperative Center for Electronic Music. And I was able to perform in the 1962 and 63 ONCE Festivals. In the latter Festival I performed under John Cage's direction in a performance of Toshi Ichiyanagi's "Sapporo", a work I've played in about three times. And, of course, I received a wonderful performance of my "Music for Clocks" by the Once Chamber Orchestra. I also did a theatre piece of mine called "May 1962".

ASTRONAUTA - In 1961 you took part in a Yoko Ono performance, at the Carnegie Hall, NYC. What are your memories from that event, and from Yoko Ono as a person?

PHILIP KRUMM - I only was around Yoko at that performance for maybe an hour or so, but she was totally nice to me. She was living with Tony Cox at that time, who was a nice guy with a pleasant personality and good sense of humor (and occasionally, some excellent pharmaceuticals). He visited me in Ann Arbor once, also. I'd been to La Monte Young's apartment (he greeted me from his bathtub) and his girlfriend at the time was the wonderful poet Diane Wakoski. She was very kind and nice to me and took me around NYC to meet people, and that was how I wound up at Yoko's concert. This was Thanksgiving weekend of 1961. Diane introduced me to Yoko who asked if I'd like to perform. My great friend from several years of art-correspondence, George Brecht, was there and he and I, along with the incredible sax player Terry Jennings, provided the music for her poetry reading. Yoko sat on a toilet as she read her own poetry. George and I had strings of tin cans tied to our ankles and made various vocal sounds, and Terry played enormous chords on his saxophone. Now and again Tony Cox, in a backstage bathroom, would flush a toilet while holding a microphone over it and giant toilet-flushes emitted from big speakers onstage. It was wonderful. And, of course, this same weekend I was at Cage's little house in Stony Point, when he gave me a copy of "Silence", which had just then been published. He picked a copy out of a box of them in his station wagon, unwrapped the brown paper around it, and presented it to me. When I asked if he'd write in it for me he said, "Write in it? I just wrote the whole book!" He had probably the best sense of humor of all the composers I've met. I was laughing with him most of the time I was there. A truly great man.

ASTRONAUTA - Before joining the Grateful Dead, Tom Constanten and Phil Lesh were active in the avant garde music field, like some other artists that moved from (or linked) the avant garde scene to the emerging psychedelic-pop-rock scene. And, of course because some of the main (or some of the most famous) psychedelic rock bands came from San Francisco, the city seems to be a sort of intersection point between the avant garde arts and the rock scene. What was your relation with the San Francisco avant garde and electronic music scene in the early 60s, did you have any contact with the San Francisco Bay area composers?

PHILIP KRUMM - Larry Austin was my contact with west coast musicians. I was lucky enough to work with several wonderful people including (Dary) John Mizelle and Art and Pat Woodbury (who performed as "Billie Alexander"). They and a few others constituted the New Music Ensemble (NME) and they did a bang-up excellent premiere of my "Sound Machine". I was only at Davis for six months when circumstances dictated that I get back to Texas. It was a difficult period for me, but the Davis musicians were wonderful. I went to San Francisco with friends to see a premiere of Morton Subotnick's "The Tarot", a work with music and projections. It was enjoyable but when I met him again years later he said that he'd withdrawn it. I also lucked into a Muddy Waters concert at the Avalon. There were important rock concerts at UC Davis that I was also lucky to enjoy: The Jefferson Airplane, Big Brother and The Holding Company, and The Grateful Dead all did very engaging concerts. My only time, I think, taking part in a several-hundred person snake dance. Fantastic.

ASTRONAUTA - And how about the Texas rock scene? You've managed rock bands for a while, and also had a light show company, in the 60s, right? What was the link between avant garde arts and psychedelic rock music in Texas, at that time? Were you in contact with Roky Erickson, Tommy Hall (13th Floor Elevators), and other rock bands from the 60s? And how about another Texas' psychedelic rock band, with avant garde influences, Mayo Thompson's Red Krayola?

PHILIP KRUMM - I met the 13th Floor Elevators early on, right when their first 45 of "Tired to Hide" and "You're Gonna Miss Me" came out, about 1964. They were all very smart and interesting people and I kept in touch, aperiodically, until the very end, which I happened to be around to see, even be part of. Roky had gotten to be pretty far out by 1968 - a very important year for many of us - because of all the acid, etc., that he'd consumed during the previous 'sixties. One of my mostly volunteer jobs at HemisFair, San Antonio's world's fair which was going on then, was as a concert organizer for the Youth Pavilion, and we did a lot of excellent concerts, including the Elevators. But across the street from HemisFair was a rock bar which had a sister venue in Houston. The manager was - at first - a rude and obnoxious fellow who treated all musicians like cat litter, felt they needed to be kept in their place. The Elevators were scheduled to play there on a Saturday night, but no one mentioned that to me. Roky'd made friends with a wonderful Vietnam vet named Charlie Powell, who was heavily - as we said at the time - shell-shocked, now under the blanket PTSD. They were both too damaged to communicate effectively with most of us, but got along excellently with one another. I had a Cadillac hearse at the time that I'd bought while in California in 1966. Charlie and Roky showed up and asked if they could borrow it to go to Austin. I said Of Course and off they went.

Only minutes later Tommy Hall showed up looking for Roky. They were scheduled to perform at the rock club and the manager was already in a bad mood and now Roky was obliviously headed for Austin in my hearse. Tommy said, "without Roky, we're screwed." I went with Tommy to the rock bar and watched him endure the indignities of the hot-headed and verbally abusive manager, happy to chew out and insult the most rugged and extraordinary rock group Texas ever produced. I had an occasion to see him later in the year. He said he felt badly about how he dealt with them but his experience dealing with bands over the years made him see them as mostly stupid cattle.

That was the end of their concert work together. I heard about an Elevators gig happening in Ingram a year or more later at the Old Dog Saloon but when I got there it was just Roky and his friends, no Elevators at all. I politely indicated that this was bad form and he shouldn't pretend to be the Elevators. I think he already knew this and I just reinforced it a bit. He never did that again. I should say also that no matter how zonked out he was, or how straight, he always remembered me and my name, which was always wonderful and surprising to me. He was always, and remains, a good guy.

Actually, the Elevator who kept in touch with me the longest and spent the most time talking to me about them and their experiences was Stacy Sutherland. He was very smart and literate and had a great way of parsing out the history they'd all passed through during the turbulent 'sixties. He was responsible for the final album "Bull of the Woods" getting out at all; he did most of the production work on it and wrote much of the material. He'd promised that he'd bring me a lyric sheet for it since some of the words are hard to make out but - as many people had feared might happen - his wife shot and killed him before he could make that visit. It was a sad and stupid loss of a nice guy and good friend. He's buried at Center Point.

To answer your question, I didn't know the Krayola folks but liked their album. I know lots of the bands of the era, Bubble Puppy, Jay Hoyer, more that I can remember right now. It was a wonderful period of my life.

Of course, I managed (in a manner of speaking) two excellent rock bands, one called "Rachel's Children" and the other called "The Children". They were (except for an occasional drummer overlap) unrelated groups, and were already named when they found me. Rachel's Children were genuine artists, brilliant musicians, and very inventive, but somewhat lacking in professional stamina. When they didn't want to play, they didn't play, but they rarely took gigs that they wouldn't do. The Children, on the other hand, were totally devoted and could do concerts even when very sick. They later wound up with Lou Adler who got them an album on a major label ("Rebirth" on Atco. CD reissue on Gear Fab.) They deserved the recognition they got, and more. Two of them died early, Steve Perron and Bill Ash, both wonderful guys and fine musicians. And the singer Cassell Webb, was and remains beautiful and gifted. Rachel's Children made some wonderful recordings. They wound up in the possession of famous author William F. Brammer ("Billy") who greatly admired the group. One day he told guitarist Don Harding (who also died young) that he (Brammer) was the only person he know of over 50 still shooting speed. Three weeks or so later he was dead, and the tapes disappeared with him. I'd met Bill Brammer while working at HemisFair where he was in some top-level position. He had a best-seller novel a few years earlier called "The Gay Place" which wasn't about anything gay but was actually a fictionalized history of Lyndon Johnson. I noticed that after Bill died the publishers reprinted "The Gay Place" in a lovely trade paperback, under the name "Billy Lee Brammer". This was annoying to me. At no time during the two-and-a-half years that I was around him did anyone ever call him "Billy Lee". He published the book as "William F. Brammer". I believe that the "Billy Lee" name is a publishing gimmick to make him seem more Texasy. But it's a good book, nonetheless. And Bill' was a sad loss to lots of us who knew him.

My lightshow company was called "Light/Sound Development" and utilized many good friends, like David King, a talented visual artist, Richard Moore, Pat Finch and others. I'd seen the light-shows at the Avalon and Fillmore, but major influence was the much earlier Ann Arbor Space Theatre created by Milton Cohen. Ashley, Mumma and I had done music for his overwhelmingly beautiful multi-projection light shows. When I returned to Texas from Michigan I immediately (1963) began constructing a turntable-projection system based on Milton's, and was helped by one of San Antonio's native geniuses, Charlie Winans. We put together a fabulous turntable covered with fixed and spinning mirrors, systems of prisms, and an artfully constructed mirror ball in the middle. The turntable was surrounded by film and slide projectors and various light-projection sources, all aimed into it, and the dazzling light-splaying effect on any given environment was quite psychedelic and original to us. But we also had overhead projectors too, and could produce a fine lightshow. We worked the opening of San Antonio's first psychedelic club, "The Mind's Eye", and The 13th Floor Elevators and Rachel's Children played also. But a crowning achievement was a concert Rachel's Children did late in HemisFair at the Youth Pavilion. We had so much equipment at our disposal: seven or eight overhead projectors, four film projectors, a stereo slide projector as well as standard ones, and our central lightsplayer. The band was amazing that night and our lightshow guys were in top form, and it became one of the most astonishing musical-techno-cultural alterations of collective reality where all the participants were, for a few minutes at least, totally united in a transformative experience. When it ended my Youth Pavilion supervisor looked at me with a dazed expression and said, "That was the most amazing damn thing I've ever seen!" And it was, as we all knew it. It was one of those events that makes a life in music and concerts so incredibly wonderful, mostly because it happens so rarely.

I can't leave these Texas Music memories without a mention of the incredibly ingenious Jerry Hunt. We met at Roger Shattuck's 'Pataphysics Festival in late spring or early summer of 1963. I'd met Roger a while before when he'd invited me to dinner at his home with his wife and I gave him a copy of my board-game composition, "Lincoln Center". Later he invited me to the Festival and I performed a piece of my own and Gordon Mumma's "Four Part Music". I met Jerry after his surprising performance and we became immediante friends. A truly bonding experience was a truly grueling trip in his Renault Dauphine (with the back seat full of electronic equipment) to Brandeis University where we did a heavy-duty concert with Alvin Lucier. The concert was wonderful but the trip was a horrorshow, best detailed at another time. Jerry and I did many more concerts together as well as a TV program for KLRN (1964) which was simulcast on the radio, and stayed in touch until shortly before his suicide. It was a painful loss and I can still hear his very distinctive voice from many long and interesting phone calls in the intervening years.

ASTRONAUTA - How it was your first contact with Electronic Music Synthesizers, especially with the Moog Synthesizer?

PHILIP KRUMM - The first synthesizer I got to use was a little Buchla at UC Davis. It had no keyboard, only plugs and patch cords. I set up some simple rhythm patterns and recorded them and wound up selling them, sinfully cheaply of course, to an agency doing commercials for Volkswagen. I heard some of my material on the radio from time to time. I used, surreptitiously, a couple of synthesizers at Trinity University here in San Antonio: one was an Electro-Comp, which had a keyboard printed on the lid of the synthesizer. Jerry Hunt had some Moog filters in his studio which I used a couple of times. I met Bob Moog when Alamo Piano Company brought him in for a lecture-demonstration, probably about 1969. But I never used a Moog itself. I got a gig (1967?) playing in a Christian rock cantata thing called "Truth of Truths". They let me have a nice ARP synthesizer for about six weeks before the concert. I recorded a lot of material with it and most of which I still have. ARP was probably my all-around favorite of all the early synthesizers I used. Not a happy worshipper myself, the concert was a bit of a challenge for me; but all I had to do was play a little electronic sound behind "God"'s voice now and then. "God" was played by a big-time Baptist preacher in San Antonio named Buckner Fanning.

ASTRONAUTA - What are your memories on meeting and studying with Karlheinz Stockhausen in the mid-60s, at UC Davis?

PHILIP KRUMM - Stockhausen was a bright spot in a difficult time for me. This was the summer of 1966. I'd been invited out to UC Davis by a prominent composer on the faculty there. A friend and I drove to California in my Corvair, which had to be held in 3rd gear with a bicycle inner-tube attached to the seats. The trip was a horrorshow in itself, but when I got there and found that no music department assistance was available, things got tougher. I got to meet Stockhausen when Bob Ashley was visiting Mills College. He took a liking to me, I guess, and invited me to have lunch with him. We talked mostly about the Ann Arbor experience a few years earlier, and walked for a while talking about composers I' met. He told me he wouldn't mind if I audited his lectures, since I'm come all that way and couldn't get school assistance.

I managed to attend a few of his lectures before I had to return to Texas. He discussed his major compositions and how he made them, chiefly "Carre" and "Kontra-Punkte"; "Mikrophonie 1" had just come out on a Columbia LP, and he discussed the making of that enormous work. Then, time and money ran out and I had to return home. I saw him in Clear Lake City a few years later for a performance of "Sirius" with Markus on trumpet, a wonderful program. I went to talk to him after the concert, told him that I'd driven up from San Antonio to see him. He grasped my hand warmly and said, "You are an angel!"

ASTRONAUTA - In your interview with Josh Ronsen you've mentioned that you have recordings of some of your pieces, performed at ONCE Festival and ONCE Friends, that aren't on the Box Set released in 2003 by New World Records. Do you have plans to make this "extra" recordings available?

PHILIP KRUMM - There'a a recording of the piece I consider my opus one, if I used opus numbers, which I don't. It's called "Paragenesis", for two violins and piano. It was performed and recorded at a "Once Friends" concert by Karin Fierce, Lana Nail and Larry Leitch. I guess it'll turn up someday. Also, New Albion recorded the concert with the premiere of my "Banshee Fantasia", which was commissioned by the Bay Area Pianists in 1996 in celebration of Henry Cowell's 100th birthday. It was played by "Blue" Gene Tyranny between two different versions of Cowell's "The Banshee". I imagine that that album will be released someday. Also, at the time of this writing, Idea Records is preparing an LP of some of my early electronic works, one of which was made in Gordon Mumma's Ann Arbor studio. Idea does beautiful work, and have released my "Formations", a work I made using star maps back in 1962. "Blue"'s wonderful recording was in bad shape before it got translated into digital format, but the result knocked me out when I first got the master disc. There are, at my home, some tapes of early works such as the score for "Taming of the Shrew", a flute and piano sonata ("Autumn Sonata") which is written so that the flutist can accompany himself, and a few early orchestral pieces. I have no idea of the condition of the tapes. I hope they can be properly copied someday. Opus One release Scott Vance's recording of my Bass Clarinet Concerto, under the direction of the marvelous Barney Childs. There's also a fine recording by Martin Walker that I hope sees release someday. And I own a tape of the concert Jerry Hunt and I did with Alvin Lucier and the Brandeis Orchestra in 1963. That would be an interesting historical document to release someday.

ASTRONAUTA - Well, that's it, sir. Thank you so much for your time and for accepting my invitation for this interview!

PHILIP KRUMM - Thank you, Fabricio. I'm grateful to you for giving me an opportunity to solidify some important memories. I hope that not too much suffers in translation; there'll probably be some problematical moments. I'm interested in seeing how interesting these brief historical remembrances might someday be.

Philip K.




Entrevista com Ron Geesin

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O compositor, performer, arquiteto sonoro, designer interativo, radialista, escritor e palestrante escocês Ronald Frederick Geesin nasceu na cidade de Stevenson, em Ayrshire (Escócia), no dia 17 de dezembro de 1943. A música surgiu na vida de Ron ainda na infância, na forma de uma harmônica cromática. Aos 15 anos de idade ele descobriu o jazz e começou a tocar banjo, mudando para o piano em seguida, aprendendo o instrumento de forma auto-didata, ouvindo alguns dos gigantes do jazz no seu gramofone. Aos 17 anos, Ron Geesin juntou-se à sua primeira banda profissional, Original Downtown Syncopators. Com a banda, Ron gravou e saiu em turnês entre 1961 e 1964.

Na metade dos anos 60, Ron descobriu o gravador de fitas magnéticas como um ótimo meio para manipular os sons e uma mídia interessante para expressar seus pensamentos e música. Em 1966 ele gravou "A Raise Of Eyebrows", seu primeiro álbum solo, executado integralmente por ele no seu estúdio caseiro, que ficava dentro do seu apartamento em Notting Hill, Londres. O disco foi lançado em 1967 pela Transatlantic Records, sendo o primeiro lançamento em stereo do selo. Neste período ele também trabalhou com trilhas para programas de rádio e TV.

Ron Geesin foi convidado para compor e gravar a trilha sonora de 'The Body', documentário científico dirigido por Roy Battersby, em 1970. Esta trilha foi fruto da colaboração entre Ron e o baixista do Pink Floyd, Roger Waters. Também em 1970, Ron foi convidado para colaborar como compositor e arranjador das partes de sopro, coral e violoncelo em 'Atom Heart Mother', a suíte épica que ocupa todo o primeiro lado do disco de mesmo nome, do Pink Floyd. 'Atom Heart Mother' foi o primeiro álbum do Pink Floyd a alcançar o número 1 nas paradas inglesas. Ron recentemente publicou um livro chamado 'The Flaming Cow', onde ele conta histórias sobre a gravação e sua contribuição para 'Atom Heart Mother'.

No início dos anos 70, ele estabeleceu uma das primeiras gravadoras de um homem só, Headscope, lançando vários discos solo legais, como 'As He Stands' (1973), 'Patruns' (1975) e 'Right Through' (1977), todos estes gravados no estúdio caseiro de Ron. Antes disto, em 1972, um disco de library music chamado 'Electrosound' foi gravado por Ron, também no seu home-studio, e lançado pelo famoso selo de library music KPM. Seu lançamento mais recente é o CD 'RonCycle1: the journey of a melody', e você pode adquirir este disco - assim como vários outros álbuns e livros do Ron Geesin, incluindo 'The Flaming Cow' - através do website da Headscope: www.headscope.co.uk

Eu contatei o Ron Geesin pela primeira vez via email, através do seu website pessoal. Uma pessoa muito agradável, Ron gentilmente aceitou responder algumas perguntas para esta entrevista. Sou muito grato e espero ter a oportunidade de encontra-lo pessoalmente algum dia. Obrigado, Ron! Aqui está a entrevista:

ASTRONAUTA - Ron, quais foram seus passos iniciais no mundo da música? E seus primeiros instrumentos e influências musicais?

RON GEESIN - Eu ganhei uma harmônica cromática quando eu tinha cerca de 10 anos de idade, e seguia os passos do expoente norte-americano Larry Adler, executando todo o tipo de música, de Gershwin a Bach. Aos 15 anos de idade, mais ou menos, eu passei a me interessar pelo jazz 'tradicional'. (Havia um revival deste tipo de música na Grã-Bretanha, no período. Aqui nós chamavamos este estilo de 'Trad'.) Então eu ganhei um banjo de escala longa no meu aniversário de 15 anos, depois de ter construido um instrumento que lembrava um banjo, feito de madeira e compensado, com os trastes feitos de arame e colados com fita adesiva. Depois de seguir com algumas bandas de 'Trad' jazz na Grã-Bretanha, principalmente Chris Barber, eu logo descobri de onde eles tiravam sua música (o que eu chamo de jazz 'clássico') e, aos 16 anos de idade, eu estava colecionando relançamentos em discos (alguns 78 rotações e alguns LPs) dos pioneiros Afro-Americanos: King Oliver, Louis Armstrong Hot 5 & 7, Jelly Roll Morton Red Hot Peppers, Bessie Smith, Bennie Moten, etc. E eu continuava a praticar no banjo, sentado no banheiro quando eu deveria estar revisando as matérias para os exames escolares! Por volta dos 16 anos e meio, eu comecei a praticar piano por conta própria, tocando blues com três dedos de cada mão. Os outros dedos ficavam dobrados, até que eu consegui tocar com 5 dedos na mão esquerda, mas apenas 4 na mão direita. Aos 17 anos e meio, eu conheci uma banda de jazz chamada Original Downtown Syncopators, perto da minha casa. Eles estavam em tour pelo sul da Inglaterra. Depois de uma semana, eu me juntei à banda. Então, eu já era um pianista profissional, mesmo tendo apenas um ano de prática no instrumento.



ASTRONAUTA - Como e quando você se interessou por equipamentos e instrumentos musicais eletrônicos? E quando você construiu seu próprio estúdio? Quais eram os equipamentos que você tinha para gravar e manipular os sons no seu estúdio, na época?

RON GEESIN - Enquanto eu ainda estava com a banda Original Downtown Syncopators, eu fiz alguns arranjos para eles, o que significava aprender algumas coisas sobre notação musical. Eu também ouvia alguns compositores clássicos. Aos 21 anos de idade, quando eu estava para deixar a banda, eu me transformei de um cara que andava com roupas antigas e preferia os gramofones (acústicos) para um cara que adotou as fitas magnéticas. Eu acho que isto já estava adormecido dentro de mim e, de repente, aflorou. Eu vi que esta nova mídia me permitiria 'pintar com os sons': eu já havia pintado, mas de uma maneira mais surreal, antes de sair de casa, aos 17 anos e meio. Meu 'estúdio' era simplesmente a sala de estar do nosso úmido apartamento no subsolo, na famosa e mais colorida área em Londres, conhecida como Notting Hill. Quando eu queria gravar algo utilizando um microfone, minha esposa - que era desinger desinger de moda - tinha que parar de riscar no seu papel vegetal! Meu primeiro gravador de fitas foi um Ferrograph (britânico), construído com a solidez de um tanque alemão. Então eu consegui outro, mas não era uma máquina de qualidade tão boa. Quando a fábrica suiça Revox apareceu, eu troquei meus gravadores e logo estava com três G36.

ASTRONAUTA - Em 1967, você lançou o álbum"A Raise Of Eyebrows". Como este disco foi criado e como foi seu processo de gravação? E quais foram as técnicas que você utilizava para gravar e manipular suas composições eletrônicas e trilhas sonoras? 

RON GEESIN - O primeiro passo era visualizar uma idéia para cada peça/composição. Então o passo seguinte era trabalhar para tornar real ('realizar') o que eu havia visualizado em termos de som, conhecendo o equipamento que eu tinha e o que eu poderia fazer; e então tinha muito improviso, tanto quando eu ligava e conectava o equipamento quanto na parte musical propriamente dita. Este álbum foi o primeiro em stereo da gravadora Transatlantic - e eu não tinha um mixer stereo. Tive que improvisar! Eu também tinha uma caixa com interruptores, com os quais eu colocava para tocar todos os meus Revox ao mesmo tempo, apertando apenas um botão. Isto servia para gravar em sincronia em mais de dois canais: os gravadores permaneciam relativamente em sincronia por até 4 minutos. Eu utilizava as técnicas de mudança de velocidade na fita; edição; tocava a fita ao contrário; ligava comunicadores antigos de aeronaves (microfones de contato); ruídos de rádio; enfim, quase tudo que eu conseguisse ligar nos gravadores.

ASTRONAUTA - Em 1970, você colaborou na composição e nos arranjos de 'Atom Heart Mother', a suíte épica que ocupa todo o lado A do álbum de mesmo nome, do Pink Floyd. Este álbum foi uma espécie de divisor de águas na carreira do Pink Floyd, sendo seu primeiro disco da banda a alcançar o número 1 nas paradas inglesas. Como você vê esta colaboração dentro da sua própria carreira e discografia? 

RON GEESIN - Meu trabalho nesta faixa, compondo todos os sopros, corais e violoncelos, foi como uma ótima peça artesanal: um material intrincado, evocativo, provocativo e excitante, tudo isso colocado em um tecido bem simples. Eu não a considero uma grande composição. Eu tenho feito peças muito melhores, só que não são escutadas por muitas pessoas.

ASTRONAUTA - Suas histórias sobre o making of de 'Atom Heart Mother' são contadas no livro 'Flaming Cow', publicado em 2013. Mas quanto a outra colaboração sua com o Roger Waters, na trilha sonora ' Music From The Body', também lançada em 1970? Como ela foi criada e gravada?

RON GEESIN - 'THE Flaming Cow!' Para o filme 'The Body', eu fui chamado para fazer a música e então me perguntaram se eu escrevia canções. "Certamente não", eu respondi, "mas conheço um cara que escreve." Então Roger Waters fez as canções e eu fiz as músicas e atmosferas. Nós trabalhamos separadamente entre Fevereiro e Março de 1970. Depois da finalização de 'Atom Heart Mother', nós passamos a trabalhar no álbum 'Music From The Body", da gravadora EMI. Roger regravou suas canções, minhas peças foram as mesmas utilizadas no filme, e então nós adicionamos algumas novas faixas, 'Our Song' e 'Body Transport'. Foi idéia do Roger emendarmos uma faixa na outra, como se alguém estivesse numa jornada pelo corpo humano e descobrisse várias câmaras diferentes.

ASTRONAUTA - Como as mudanças tecnologicas afetaram você e sua música, em todos estes anos de carreira? Você aínda tem (e usa) alguns dos equipamentos que você usava nos anos 60 e 70?

RON GEESIN - Sim, eu ainda tenho alguns dos velhos equipamentos, mas eu não considero isto importante. A idéia é tudo, e pode ser realizada de várias maneiras. As mudanças tecnologicas no áudio, principalmente o sampler e a manipulação digital, ampliaram muito a 'paleta' com a qual eu pinto meus sons, mas eles não mudam a idéia. O fator que mais influenciou e influencia em todos estes anos é a necessidade de ganhar dinheiro para sobreviver, permanecendo razoavelmente independente. Isto significa trabalhar com rádio, filmes, TV, que me oferecem exposição pública enquanto consigo manter minhas idéias radicais e verdadeiras.

ASTRONAUTA - E quanto aos seus trabalhos recentes? Você está planejando ou gravando algum álbum novo? E quanto a concertos? Você deveria vir a São Paulo, seria bacana se você viesse para tocar e palestrar aqui!

RON GEESIN - Meu trabalho mais recente em CD foi 'RonCycle1: the journey of a melody', que foi quase impossível de finalizar devido à sua complexidade. O próximo CD planejado será 'RonCycle2: the journey of a rhythm', e eu já tenho várias anotações feitas, mas ainda não tenho nem idéia se conseguirei completar este disco. No momento, até o final de 2014, eu estou compondo um trabalho octofônico utilizando o canto dos blackbirds, para ser apresentado em uma galeria na costa sul da Inglaterra (no pavilhão De La Warr, em Bexhill-on-sea) em Outubro e Novembro. Estou também finalizando um livro chamado 'Adjustability: a history and analysis of the adjustable spanner in the UK, 1750-1960'. Um concerto está fora de cogitação, por causa da osteoartrite na minha mão esquerda.

Site oficial do Ron Geesin: www.rongeesin.com









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